King Harvest - Dancing In The Moonlight

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   All but one CD in the database list King Harvest's "Dancing In The Moonlight" as neither or mastered from vinyl.  The one CD that does not have a notation is Time Life's Singers And Songwriters: Mid '70s.  Is it safe to assume that this disc has the song in stereo from a tape source, or is this another "mastered from vinyl" copy?

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aaronk Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 138	Post Options Post Reply Quote aaronk Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: King Harvest - Dancing In The Moonlight Posted: 24 September 2007 at 8:05am
	All but one CD in the database list King Harvest's "Dancing In The Moonlight" as neither or mastered from vinyl. The one CD that does not have a notation is Time Life's Singers And Songwriters: Mid '70s. Is it safe to assume that this disc has the song in stereo from a tape source, or is this another "mastered from vinyl" copy?

eriejwg Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Music Fan Joined: 10 June 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 53	Post Options Post Reply Quote eriejwg Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 September 2007 at 6:58pm
	Funny you mention it Aaron, never thought to check the database on this one. Always thought I carried the 45 version. So, if neither the 45 or LP version is indicated, is that because it's mono on all those sources?

EdisonLite Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Music Fan Joined: 18 October 2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 120	Post Options Post Reply Quote EdisonLite Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 September 2007 at 10:07pm
	My recollection is that the 45 IS mono, so that's not what prevents those recordings from being the 45 version. I know one of the reasons that most of those versions aren't either the 45 or LP version is that the lead vocal is missing an "Everybody" near the end of the song. Also, the reverb level on the vocals is different. Edited by EdisonLite

aaronk Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 138	Post Options Post Reply Quote aaronk Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 September 2007 at 12:00am
	EdisonLite is exactly right. The 45 is mono, but the mono versions on CD have added reverb on the vocals and the lead guitar. Also, at 2:15 the lead vocal is almost completely removed from the mix, which is why the word "everbody" cannot be heard clearly. It's there, but just barely. Now, thanks to Jim, I was able to hear the stereo version from one of the Collectibles CDs. While the database states "mastered from vinyl," I honestly do not hear any vinyl noise at all & no clicks and pops at all. Another reason I don't think it's vinyl is because on the fadeout, the tape hiss remains constant while the song is fading out. Even on the quietest part of the fadeout, I still cannot hear any vinyl groove noise---just the hiss. What I do hear is a very bad tape source. It sounds like it very well could be a fifth or sixth generation dub (maybe worse); there are lots of tape dropouts, especially on the intro. And of course, there's also several layers of tape hiss. Does anyone know if this is the same source used on the Time Life compilation, or are we getting a better generation source?

eriejwg Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Music Fan Joined: 10 June 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 53	Post Options Post Reply Quote eriejwg Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:17am
	Napster has a 1 track Dancing In The Moonlight available from Darbo Music LLC. Sounds like it may be the same source as the Collectibiles file, everybody is clearly heard at 2:15, with much tape hiss on the fade and the beginning has the same problem. Edited by eriejwg

EdisonLite Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Music Fan Joined: 18 October 2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 120	Post Options Post Reply Quote EdisonLite Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:47am
	MMathews and I were talking about the Collectables CD a month or two ago and both of us concluded that it was not from a vinyl source and that the listing in Pat's database is wrong. And on the flip side of that situation, there are a number of entries in the database that do not indicated "mastered from vinyl" that actually are. I usually don't bring this issue up, because it sometimes is debatable, and other times they use vinyl cleaning software, which makes it even more debatable. But personally, I'd rather see the comment "mastered from vinyl" in all cases where it is.

aaronk Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 138	Post Options Post Reply Quote aaronk Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 September 2007 at 10:59am
	I agree. I think the comment "poor source tape" would probably be more accurate for "Dancing In The Moonlight." And you're right that it can be difficult to determine a vinyl source if they used clean-up techniques to remove the vinyl artifacts. There are three things that I listen for when trying to determine if the source is vinyl: 1) clicks & pops 2) vinyl surface noise & turntable rumble 3) groove distortion Clicks and pops can generally be removed without affecting the audio in any way. Surface noise can usually be reduced without any noticeable change in audio quality; however, you would typically still hear some remnants of it on a quiet fade out (unless of course the audio was faded early, which is not the case on "Dancing..."). Groove distortion cannot be removed. This is caused when the record is worn or when the needle is not tracking properly in the groove. If none of the above are present, I don't think a "mastered from vinyl" comment is warranted. In the case of "Dancing In The Moonlight," I do not hear groove distortion, surface noise, or clicks/pops. It has to be a tape source, or else the mastering engineer did such a great vinyl clean up that he has me fooled. Perhaps we can start another thread that lists songs on CD that we can say for sure are mastered from vinyl. Also, I'm still curious to know about that Time Life disc!

EdisonLite Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Music Fan Joined: 18 October 2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 120	Post Options Post Reply Quote EdisonLite Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 September 2007 at 3:20pm
	Aaron, I agree with all your points about how to identify a vinyl source and also agree it would be great to start a thread for "mastered from vinyl" sources. I think it would be useful info for the database (and its users) if it indicated which entries are mastered from vinyl. I think this King Harvest case is probably the only example of where the database indicates something is mastered from vinyl, when it's not. I think the more common error (or lack of data) in the database is for the vinyl sources that are not indicated at all. So I propose we start a thread, as Aaron suggests, where us techie types who pay alot of attention to this matter can indicate which entries are mastered from vinyl -- assuming Pat even likes the idea and would want to update the database with this data. (Obviously, Pat, I know you'd have to agree with our assessment, so maybe we could pinpoint certain points in the song that make it a giveaway that it's from vinyl. Or maybe we could get a concensus vote.) Pat (and the others here), do you feel this info would be useful for the database?

davidclark Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Music Fan Joined: 17 November 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 25	Post Options Post Reply Quote davidclark Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:29pm
	i like this idea and I would participate.
	dc1

aaronk Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 138	Post Options Post Reply Quote aaronk Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 September 2007 at 11:26pm
	I'll start the thread! I already have one to list...