King Harvest - Dancing In The Moonlight
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Topic: King Harvest - Dancing In The Moonlight
Posted By: aaronk
Subject: King Harvest - Dancing In The Moonlight
Date Posted: 24 September 2007 at 8:05am
| All but one CD in the database list King Harvest's "Dancing In The Moonlight" as neither or mastered from vinyl. The one CD that does not have a notation is Time Life's Singers And Songwriters: Mid '70s. Is it safe to assume that this disc has the song in stereo from a tape source, or is this another "mastered from vinyl" copy? |
Replies:
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 24 September 2007 at 6:58pm
| Funny you mention it Aaron, never thought to check the database on this one. Always thought I carried the 45 version. So, if neither the 45 or LP version is indicated, is that because it's mono on all those sources? |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 24 September 2007 at 10:07pm
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My recollection is that the 45 IS mono, so that's not what prevents those recordings from being the 45 version.
I know one of the reasons that most of those versions aren't either the 45 or LP version is that the lead vocal is missing an "Everybody" near the end of the song. Also, the reverb level on the vocals is different. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 September 2007 at 12:00am
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EdisonLite is exactly right. The 45 is mono, but the mono versions on CD have added reverb on the vocals and the lead guitar. Also, at 2:15 the lead vocal is almost completely removed from the mix, which is why the word "everbody" cannot be heard clearly. It's there, but just barely.
Now, thanks to Jim, I was able to hear the stereo version from one of the Collectibles CDs. While the database states "mastered from vinyl," I honestly do not hear any vinyl noise at all & no clicks and pops at all. Another reason I don't think it's vinyl is because on the fadeout, the tape hiss remains constant while the song is fading out. Even on the quietest part of the fadeout, I still cannot hear any vinyl groove noise---just the hiss. What I do hear is a very bad tape source. It sounds like it very well could be a fifth or sixth generation dub (maybe worse); there are lots of tape dropouts, especially on the intro. And of course, there's also several layers of tape hiss. Does anyone know if this is the same source used on the Time Life compilation, or are we getting a better generation source? |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:17am
| Napster has a 1 track Dancing In The Moonlight available from Darbo Music LLC. Sounds like it may be the same source as the Collectibiles file, everybody is clearly heard at 2:15, with much tape hiss on the fade and the beginning has the same problem. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:47am
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MMathews and I were talking about the Collectables CD a month or two ago and both of us concluded that it was not from a vinyl source and that the listing in Pat's database is wrong.
And on the flip side of that situation, there are a number of entries in the database that do not indicated "mastered from vinyl" that actually are. I usually don't bring this issue up, because it sometimes is debatable, and other times they use vinyl cleaning software, which makes it even more debatable. But personally, I'd rather see the comment "mastered from vinyl" in all cases where it is. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 September 2007 at 10:59am
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I agree. I think the comment "poor source tape" would probably be more accurate for "Dancing In The Moonlight." And you're right that it can be difficult to determine a vinyl source if they used clean-up techniques to remove the vinyl artifacts. There are three things that I listen for when trying to determine if the source is vinyl:
1) clicks & pops 2) vinyl surface noise & turntable rumble 3) groove distortion Clicks and pops can generally be removed without affecting the audio in any way. Surface noise can usually be reduced without any noticeable change in audio quality; however, you would typically still hear some remnants of it on a quiet fade out (unless of course the audio was faded early, which is not the case on "Dancing..."). Groove distortion cannot be removed. This is caused when the record is worn or when the needle is not tracking properly in the groove. If none of the above are present, I don't think a "mastered from vinyl" comment is warranted. In the case of "Dancing In The Moonlight," I do not hear groove distortion, surface noise, or clicks/pops. It has to be a tape source, or else the mastering engineer did such a great vinyl clean up that he has me fooled. Perhaps we can start another thread that lists songs on CD that we can say for sure are mastered from vinyl. Also, I'm still curious to know about that Time Life disc! |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 25 September 2007 at 3:20pm
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Aaron, I agree with all your points about how to identify a vinyl source and also agree it would be great to start a thread for "mastered from vinyl" sources. I think it would be useful info for the database (and its users) if it indicated which entries are mastered from vinyl.
I think this King Harvest case is probably the only example of where the database indicates something is mastered from vinyl, when it's not. I think the more common error (or lack of data) in the database is for the vinyl sources that are not indicated at all. So I propose we start a thread, as Aaron suggests, where us techie types who pay alot of attention to this matter can indicate which entries are mastered from vinyl -- assuming Pat even likes the idea and would want to update the database with this data. (Obviously, Pat, I know you'd have to agree with our assessment, so maybe we could pinpoint certain points in the song that make it a giveaway that it's from vinyl. Or maybe we could get a concensus vote.) Pat (and the others here), do you feel this info would be useful for the database? |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:29pm
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i like this idea and I would participate. ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 September 2007 at 11:26pm
| I'll start the thread! I already have one to list... |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 26 September 2007 at 8:20am
| The reason for my comments of "mastered from vinyl" for all versions of this song come from my understanding obtained from industry sources that there is no master tape available. If anyone has information to the contrary please let us know. I guess it is an oversight that I did not add this comment to the Time-Life cd "Singers And Songwriters: Mid 70's". |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 26 September 2007 at 8:30pm
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Does anyone know what source Bill Inglot used for the version found on Have a Nice Day: Super Hits Of the 70s? ------------- |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 02 November 2008 at 1:40pm
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Had a chance to sample the Have A Nice Day... version...it's a neither.
If you take the file from the parent Dancing In The Moonlight, run some slight hiss reduction, speed it up a tad and fade it by 2:53-2:54, it matches the 45, only in stereo. That's what I just did. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 02 November 2008 at 5:00pm
| I'm not sure what you mean by "parent Dancing in the Moonlight", but if you mean the original LP, or the CD on Collectables, then I believe your statement is correct. The "Have a Nice Day" version has extra reverb and is also missing an "everybody" lead vocal in the latter part of the song. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 02 November 2008 at 5:55pm
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Gordon:
I guess what I mean to say was parent LP. On Napster, it's track 10 from Dancing In The Moonlight. The 'everybody' is clearly heard at 2:15. I'll send you a file for observation... |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 10:19am
| The actual commercial 45 run time of King Harvest's "Dancing in the Moonlight" is 2:56. (Thanks once again to Jim for the timing info. The printed record label time is 2:57.) I bring this up because the three database CDs that do not contain a "neither the 45 nor LP version" comment run from 2:51-2:57. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 19 September 2017 at 9:15pm
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Stereo mix (2:56, plus or minus a second)
Mark M supplied the following details, since he had to become a King Harvest expert when Eric Records licensed the song: At the time Eric licensed the song in 2010, Musidisc in Paris (where this was recorded) was still in business but they had been purchased by Universal. Sometime in the last few years, the rights reverted to the band and now the song is licensed by their attorney. Musidisc in 1972 provided one master tape to Perception Records in the US and that was a copy of the stereo LP master. Mark sent me a copy of the raw file that Musidisc-Universal sent to him back then, and Aaron K sent me a dub from the Collectables CD. I can confirm that one is a digital clone of the other. They sound virtually identical to my ears, even down to the fade at the end. In my null test, they cancel almost exactly, with the same levels and same EQ. But the null test leaves behind some odd static-y artifacts around -24 dB, which tells me that one of the two files has some small noise reduction applied. It's a very small amount, though, and I couldn't tell which file has it - I didn't hear any NR artifacts with my ears, even with a significant level boost on the fade. Edit: see post below Eric's Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 12 (2010) is a digital clone of the Musidisc-Universal file, but with a pretty large amount of noise reduction applied. This is quite audible on the fade. Note that all of the above are from a source tape, not from vinyl. Aaron sent me a needledrop of the vinyl LP. Compared to the digital versions, the vinyl LP runs 1.3% faster, has its left and right channels swapped, and has the same dropouts on the intro (but in the opposite channel due to the left/right channel swap). The two-track mixdown tape even back in 1972 was pretty beat up. Plus, the vinyl LP sounds extremely muffled, compared to all the digital versions listed above - not good, and not really worth hunting down on vinyl. For my own libary, I'm going with the digital version, at the speed of the digital version, and with the left/right orientation of the digital version. Mono mix (2:56, plus or minus a second) It's a fold-down of the stereo mix, same fade points and all. Mark confirmed that Perception folded down the LP version exactly as-is and released the 45 in mono. The vinyl 45 runs about 0.2% faster than the digital version on the Collectables and Eric CDs, which is an insignificant difference. Previously unreleased mono mix (2:49) Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 17 (1993) uses a mono mix that was never released in the US, as far as I can tell. This mix buries the lead vocal at 2:15, so that the word "everybody" is barely audible. The same analog transfer is used on:
One more stereo version The stereo version on Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 8 Mid-'70s (2001) is a clever edit that fixes some of the dropouts on the intro. The first 15 seconds are grafted on from Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 17 (1993). After 0:15, Singers And Songwriters uses the same analog transfer as the digital versions above. The transition point is on the first word "we". Clever! But unfortunately, the mixes are different. On Have A Nice Day Vol. 17, the shaky instrument comes in too early. Based on this, I'd vote that Singers And Songwriters Vol. 8 Mid-'70s is also a "neither the 45 nor LP version". ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 20 September 2017 at 6:38am
In an earlier post, I mentioned that the Collectibles CD (and therefore Universal digital master) sounded like it was a high generation tape. If you take the vinyl LP and give it a big treble boost, it basically sounds like the Collectables CD. So, yeah, Ron is right that it's not worth hunting down the vinyl if you're searching for a better source. I will, however, say that I prefer an EQ that is somewhere in the between the LP and CD. The CD is too harsh and bright IMO, and the treble boost really makes that tape hiss stand out. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
crapfromthepast wrote:Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 20 September 2017 at 12:02pm
Hey Aaron, Any suggested EQ settings to make the Collectibles CD less harsh? |
Posted By: anthology123
Date Posted: 20 September 2017 at 4:39pm
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I read an interview years ago (before 2000) regarding the Rhino Have A Nice
Day comps, and there was particular attention to this song. I am not certain if the interview was with Bill or not. It mentioned they had a hard time tracking down the master tape for this song, it mentions the owner of the master being in France at the time, and could not be bothered to hunt down the original master tape for them. I don't remember many of the details, it may have been in an issue of Goldmine. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 22 September 2017 at 1:49pm
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So back to the comparison of the Collectables CD (1993) vs. the file that Musidisc-Universal sent to Mark back in 2010...
My null test reveal that one was a digital source for the other, but there was a static-y artifact down around -24 dB. I haven't encountered this situation often, and attributed it to noise reduction or maybe some compression/limiting. Nope. Brian W figured this one out: The file from Musidisc-Universal is taken from an mp3 source! If you start with the version from the Collectables CD (released in 1993), convert it to an mp3 (probably 256 kbps), then convert it back to a lossless file, you get the file from Musidisc-Universal. You can see from a spectral analysis that the frequencies about 17 kHz are chopped off on the Musidisc-Universal, but are fully intact on the Collectables CD. This would produce exactly what I saw in my null test - static-y artifacts. I've seen this only once before, where I manually created an mp3 file from a lossless source, just to see what artifacts the mp3 conversion causes. So mp3 conversion artifacts weren't really on my radar when I did the null test. Nice work, Brian! Unfortunately, Eric's Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 12 (2010) was sourced from the mp3-ized file from Musidisc-Universal, and therefore also has the high-frequency cutoff issue. Plus, the intro of the Eric disc has some crazy high-frequency content during the intro, as the result of some very unorthodox processing. Mark M is aghast at all this, as you might imagine, and will certainly be taking extra care with this track for an upcoming remastering of Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 12. Based on Mark's work on the recent Hard To Find discs, I'm confident that he'll make this track sound better than it ever has on CD. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 22 September 2017 at 6:50pm
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A remastering of that volume is a great idea. Good info once again Ron. ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 22 September 2017 at 7:34pm
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Yes, aghast is an understatement. It never occurred to anyone that a major label would slip an mp3 source at us! And unfortunately the mp3 source was exacerbated by the noise reduction applied to it.
Note: Musidisc in France supplied a lossless tape to Universal, it was Universal that oddly converted to an mp3 then back to a wav before supplying it my former co-engineer. You can hear the lossless, flat master tape on the Collectables CD, which is NOT from vinyl, NO copy has ever been taken from vinyl! This persistent rumor of it being from vinyl was started by a friend of mine in the industry (who will remain nameless). When he heard the drop-outs in the intro of the first CD, he said "hey those same drop outs were on the record, therefore the CD must be from a record." Sigh, NO, the dropouts originate from the master so of course they were on the record! And this song may be hissy on the original tape (always was) but you will hear that hiss on the new remaster. Sorry, but you'll have to live without the noise reduction this time. :-) Thanks again to Brian for discovering this issue, and Ron's excellent research on the other CDs. I'll post here when the remaster becomes available. It takes time to clear all the tracks again. MM |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 22 September 2017 at 8:51pm
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Remastering some of the out-of-print "Hard to Find 45"
titles is a GREAT idea! |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 23 September 2017 at 2:14am
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I should point out some of the much older volumes will
never be re-pressed. Each one may have a different reason. Sometimes sales, other times a licensing issue. When you go to re-master a CD, if anyone artist declines the 2nd time around, you can't renew the package. It'a all aboard, or nothing. MM |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 23 September 2017 at 11:06am
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In the event that an artist or licensing issue arises,
could you create new volumes as you go to wait for any possible licensing or artist issue? |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 26 September 2017 at 12:45pm
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When Rhino re-did the Billboard yearly (particularly 1960s) CDs, there would sometimes be 1 substitute track - I think 1969 or 1968 were examples. Mark, perhaps Eric Records, if considering a remastered reissue of a certain volume, can do that if there's one naysayer in the pack. Of course, if swapping one song constitutes a whole "new" package and is much more costly than just doing a straight reissue (remastered) of a previous volume, then I would totally understand why Eric Records would choose not to do that.
And btw, Mark, you did such a great job of your personal mastered version of "Dancing in the Moonlight" off the Collectables CD - which I must have first heard in the early 2000s - I'm surprised you didn't just go with that exact file instead of requesting this one from Musidisc/Universal. (Or were you not consulting yet with Eric Records at that time?) |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 26 September 2017 at 2:45pm
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Just FYI - it's the Rhino's Billboard Top R&R Hits that has the reissues.
The discs covering the individual years 1960-1969 were originally released in 1988 and 1989. All ten of these volumes were rereleased in 1993 with slightly different track listings, due to licensing requirements. The rereleases replaced tracks by Elvis, the Four Seasons, Motown, the Byrds, and a few others that don't seem to fit into a pattern. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 27 September 2017 at 7:18pm
To answer a few Q's ... we don't have the option of swapping a track on the re-issue like Rhino and Time-Life did so many times. For us, the track list has the remain the same.
I was the co-engineer for Volume 12, but my mastering was rejected. I was outvoted on that one. As I recall, I think they didn't like my EQ because I added a lot of bass, and I left the hiss in. At that time, it was thought "no hiss" was better. We don't have that philosophy anymore, so the remaster will refect that. MM |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 28 September 2017 at 12:26pm
| Too bad you were outvoted. I thought your cleaning of "Dancing in the Moonlight" was perfect. I never felt there was too much hiss left in; plus, I'm not a overly bass loving guy, and I never felt your remastering was overly bassy. |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 30 September 2017 at 7:09pm
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Thanks for clearing up the history of this recording. Kept
wondering what was going on. You explained a lot. French origin, no surprise. And the MP3 fed by Universal (professionally unacceptable, should have gotten you a High Res file or a dub tape from the original). ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: VWestlife
Date Posted: 27 November 2020 at 10:27pm
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Does the "back in stock by popular demand" version of "Hard to Find 45s on CD, Vol. 12" that Eric Records is now selling on their web site still contain the MP3-sourced copy of "Dancing in the Moonlight", or is it the promised remastered version?
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