Elmo & Patsy-Grandma Got Run Over By...
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Topic: Elmo & Patsy-Grandma Got Run Over By...
Posted By: jimct
Subject: Elmo & Patsy-Grandma Got Run Over By...
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 3:21am
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It might've been back in December of 1979, but I'm almost certain it
wasn't until December of 1980, when our station started getting big requests for this song. But, until the 1984 Epic re-recording, we would never get a copy of the song into our station. I believe our city's album rocker ran Dr. Demento on weekends. As a song, "Grandma..." was right up his alley. The station must've then begun to play the song in regular holiday rotation. Because, clearly, folks in our area were hearing the song somewhere on local radio - and it wasn't us. And while I'd hardly compare this to a Top 40 rival hammering a new Beatle track in 1964 that no one else had, for example, no PD/MD ever wants to not even have access to a song that's generating good local buzz. I was only out of college a year, but I'd already become known as "the guy who owns every song in history" at the station. Even though I didn't yet. Not by a long shot. But back then, I felt heavy pressure to always come through for the station, whenever they'd ask me for stuff. (After all, they gave me a chance on-air, without even an aircheck tape, for reasons that escape me to this day.) The MD asked me if I had a copy of "Grandma...", saying they really needed it. Luckily, I'd gotten a copy of it only *days* before. In Fall '79, my best friend in college had began law school, 3 hours away, in Albany, NY. I'd go up one weekend a month, mainly getting introduced to the local brew of choice, Genesee (they called it "Jenny"), Mr. Subb, and a supermarket called Price Chopper, none of which ever existed in CT (please correct me if I'm wrong, Andy Chouffi!) :) My buddy said that a WWII vet came back home in 1945, and opened his own record shop. By 1958, he was stocking the entire Hot 100, and he would buy a dozen extra cutout copies of each, on the cheap, when they were being deleted as currents. As a result, years later, he still had quantity on unplayed, original copies, for 98%+ of all old hit 45s. And yes, they could be quite pricey to acquire. He also stocked a ton of seasonal/novelty/comedy music. My buddy knew I collected 45s, so he specifically brought me there, on my first trip up. It changed my life. I'd never seen a place anything like it, before or since. The owner's wife was always there, too. She would smile, but she would never interact with customers. Interior design was her skill. All their 45s were behind the counter. As were the LPs themselves. (Only the LP jackets, in plastic, were accessible for customers to browse through-you had to ask them for the record, if interested.) It was well-lit, and impeccably clean. It didn't have that old, dingy record shop look, that us collectors never seem to mind. (Forgive me - I know 99% of us have been inside many a Mom-and-Pop shop. I just had to share the wonder of my "Holy Grail", all-time #1 favorite place, with you. The memories suddenly all flooded back, thinking about "Grandma...". To me, them having this 45 was possibly their finest hour. Now please, wake up!!!!) :) While on-the-air the previous week, I'd gotten several requests for "Grandma...". It was the first song I'd even gotten a request for that I was 100% unfamiliar with. So I knew I'd likely be getting asked about it soon, unless a copy had arrived into the station. I knew I couldn't count on such luck, though. So when I walked into Abe's record shop, while visiting the very next weekend, I knew I wanted that Elmo & Patsy 45 - and I wanted it BAD. Well, thank goodness. Somehow, Abe had it in stock. It was on the "Oink" label. I snagged it on a Saturday, and, wouldn't you know, the MD asked me if I happened to have a copy of it the very next Tuesday! Somehow, my "musicologist" reputation had remained spotless. By the skin of my teeth! I'd rather be lucky than good... Enough psychobabble! Now to the song's 45 history. I never had a copy of the initial, private-press 45. Wikipedia states that the Oink 45 was a re- recorded version of the private-press 45, but I couldn't previously confirm/refute this, not owning one. Well, I finally just snared a copy, on eBay. As best as my tin ear can surmise, although the two are very similar, I'm just about positive I hear minor differences, in both the guitar playing and vocals. (I will be shooting both versions out to my buddy Aaron ASAP, for confirmation, as his busy schedule permits.) Although the private press 45 doesn't say "Oink" anywhere on it, it does use both the same, cream-colored label and the exact same pig "caricature" as the later Oink 45 does. And they both have "Christmas" as the B-side. Here are the full particulars: -Elmo 'n' Patsy--"Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer" Private Pressing: -on "Elmo 'n' Patsy" KP2984A (listed time 3:30; actual time 3:25) (Deadwax "R-5029", followed by a faint "3A4KP-98-1-R"). It states, 1979 Kim-Pat Ent., Fayetteville, Tenn., and shows a phone # on the label's bottom rim. It lists a Windsor, CA PO Box on the label's left side, the stock #, timing and publishing on the right side, with just the artist name, in large, handwriting-style letters, on the top. Wikipedia states that the "Oink" 45 copies were primarily distributed out west, while an agreement was struck with Nashville, TN's Nationwide Sound Distributors, to press up/distribute Soundwaves 45 copies to the Eastern half of the country. I know that my Albany, NY shop only had Oink copies in 1980. The next December (1981), my intent was to buy another copy or two of it, and gift one to the station, as backup. That's when Abe also had the copies on Soundwaves. They were less expensive than his Oink copies, and he assured me that both the Oink and Soundwaves recordings were identical. I believe that the Soundwaves pressings were the most commonly available 45s (but keep in mind, I'm here in CT, not out west. But I base my conclusion on what's mostly offered on eBay.) There were two different designs for Soundwaves: the first had the label name largely written across the top, while later copies had Soundwaves in smaller letters, enclosed by a circle and a quasi-radio wave design. Aside from this difference, all Soundwave copies contain the exact same audio as the Oink 45 does. My research indicates that during the Christmas seasons of 1981, 1982 and 1983, this was the definitive source for this track. To this day, it's not on a ton of CDs, but both the Billboard 1955- present V/A Christmas CD and 1984 Elmo & Patsy Epic CD feature the 1984 Epic re-recording. I was initially skeptical that the public wouldn't go for a re-sing, after 4-5 years of hearing the other version. But, egghead that I am, I seem to be the only one that ever noticed this fact! The public seemed to "adopt" the re-sing immediately, as the definitive version. I can't help but wonder why Epic just didn't buy the Oink/Soundwaves recording outright? The sound on that recording is perfectly OK. Was somebody holding out for a fortune for the master tape? Or was Elmo Stropshire anxious to begin a relationship with Epic, record an entire LP, and hopefully further his success? Probably the latter..... Oink KP-2984-A 45 pressing: -same stock # as the private press (listed 3:30; actual 3:25) (Deadwax: "KP-2984-A", followed by "L-3469") Soundwaves NSD/SW4658 pressing: -the exact same recording as the Oink 45 (listed 3:30; actual 3:25) (Deadwax:"R-5029") Finally, details for the 1984, re-recorded Epic 34-04703 45 (listed & actual time 3:26) (1984 promo 45 deadwax: "ZSS-169846-1B" (flip side ends in 1C)). A later promo copy we got in, likely in either '85 or '86, (promo stock #15-05479), has the same Epic deadwax, except it ends in "1H", with Epic adding "November, 1984" to this later promo 45's label. Columbia/Epic had a habit of often adding an "original recording date", to both some of their holiday and oldies 45 catalog re-issues. The Epic 34- 04703 stock copy included "Percy, The Puny Poinsettia" as the B-side. (The deadwax info is exactly the same as one side of my 1984 promo, ending in "1C".) |
Replies:
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 3:48am
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I sure wish the original Oink/Soundwaves version would be
issued on CD from a tape source. I emailed Elmo several years ago and asked him if it had ever been been issued on CD, but his only response was:
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Dear Brian,
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 4:14am
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Wow, Brian - to see that old e-mail response from Elmo himself was
great! When I was younger, I would surely take information like that, which is "right from the horses' mouth", as gospel. But over more recent times, I've concluded that, while a few artists have still retained an amazing memory, as to level of detail (for example, I interviewed Petula Clark, around 2005. She was prepping for a week-long string of shows at a big CT casino. We hit it off. She gave me three times the allotted length. Almost a full hour. Man, I got the impression I could've asked her anything about any song she'd ever sung, and could've provided instant recall! - too bad I can't get her back on the horn, and find out why her Complete Singles set on Real Gone fizzled, right? Somehow, I know she'd know what happened!) But I'd never heard of, or ever seen a copy, of that Elmo & Patsy LP coming out on Soundwaves, and then later being "picked up" by Epic? Yes, that's a pretty major detail for Elmo to be mis-remembering. But, until I see vinyl proof of that Epic LP on Soundwaves, I'm gonna lump Elmo's kind reply into the category of "If you wanna get to the bottom of an artist's discography, the last person on earth you should ask is the artist themselves!" I already know that Elmo's statement about the Oink 45 being issued first is wrong. I'm holding the private pressing in my hand right now, and the word "Oink" does not appear on it anywhere..... |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 6:49am
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I just checked my non-Epic copy, and it's the original
issue (not Oink). According to that fountain of accuracy, Wikipedia the Oink single sold 50,000 copies, so maybe Elmo was confusing it with the private release. I don't remember where I got my copy, though I'm pretty sure I got it in 1979. My day job back then did entail some travel, I may have been on the west coast on a business trip. I just got it out of curiosity, hadn't heard the song until I first played this single. I think I snuck it in on the air a couple times. I do recall hearing of a negative reaction to the song initially, most likely from old people who felt they were being demeaned. Can't recall any station around here officially playing it until the re-recording was issued on Epic. |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 9:28am
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To Jim:
Yes, Jim, 'Price Chopper', borne out of 'Central Market' was in '79 pretty much still confined to the Schenectady/Albany/Troy area. I was actually working at a Price Chopper in 1978/1979 when I got my first bar DJ gig, and yes I consumed a fair amount of Genny Cream Ale back then. Andy |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 9:46am
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Steve, you had great instinct to take a flyer on that 45, during your trip
west. And trust me, I'm under no delusion that Wikipedia is any sort of consistent pillar of accuracy. But it does have its moments. Sometimes folks who were intimately involved in a certain subject will take the time to add some little-known info, that ends up being accurate. But, as a whole, it is surely an information crapshoot. I also found it interesting that the song didn't get any airplay in your area until '84. Finally, I'm not real clear on what you meant when you said no one where you were "officially played" the song 'til '84. While I think our station did end up adding the Band Aid 45 to our Top 30 list for a week or two, back in '84, such instances were few and far between. In fact, I don't recall either us or any other reporting Top 40 stations ever charting the songs in their Christmas airplay rotation. Even if it was a new release, making its holiday debut. To confirm this, I just browsed an old survey repository. And while its storehouse is far from complete, I only found "Grandma..." ever showing up one time - on a 1986 survey. Yet we all remember how nauseatingly often we heard the song on radio, each December. (PS- thanks for the "Local Albany, NY scene, circa 1979", details confirmation, Andy!) |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 10:37am
What I meant was if it was played, it was just spiked once or twice in the morning show as a novelty item, as opposed to being part of the rotation of Christmas songs. The station I was at from '78-83 never played it, nor did anyone else I ever heard (though our local soft AC did play "Christmas", the B side).
Actually, Price Chopper has quite a presence in Vermont, with a couple stores in N.H. as well. The store name isn't terribly accurate...of the 3 chains in the area (PC, Hannaford & Shaws), PC's prices are generally the highest. Genessee beer is (or at least was in the late 70s) sold in N.H. For a budget brand it was OK. |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 10:48am
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To Hykker:
Are you saying back in 1979 there were Price Chopper stores in Vermont & New Hampshire?? Are you sure you weren't confusing that with P&C Food Markets (no relation) or something else? Sorry to derail the thread... Andy |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 11:15am
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Very interesting thread! About 6 or 7 years ago, I was browsing the used 45s at Half Price Books. I stumbled upon an original private pressing 45, and I bought it for about a buck, not having any idea how rare it is. I was just curious about its audio content, since I had only ever heard the Epic re-recording. I have it sitting in front of me right now, and it's exactly like the copy Jim describes above. It's on a cream colored label with no mention of "Oink" anywhere. It simply says "Elmo & Patsy" in big script letters across the top, and there is a picture of a pig on the left side of the label. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 6:43pm
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Elmo & Patsy label was first version.
Second Version Oink Label Third variant SoundWaves on two different label designs (Replaced the Elmo & Patsy label for East Coast) Fourth the Epic re-recording First recording released in the UK on Stiff Records ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 6:47pm
I tried to PM you, but your inbox was full. It could have been P&C, it seems like a lot of P&C's became Price Choppers so I thought they were the same chain. Now, back to Grandma. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 7:00pm
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Thanks for another in-depth post, Jim! I put together a label collage of the five 45 releases I have here:
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/Y ahShure/EampPcolla ge_zps36e9c191.jpg These were the 45s in the chronological order I received them: Top row, left to right: 1. The original Oink 45, a styrene pressing. Yes, there is no "Oink" mention anywhere to be found on the label, but it was referred as the Oink label from the start (similar to the Clickettes' "Lover's Prayer" appearing on a label with a drawing of a pair of hands holding two dice, but no label name. Was it Dice? Tumbling Dice? Hard to tell when there's no actual printed label name.) 2. 1982 Soundwaves reissue. Red & white factory sleeve, listing NSD's P.O. box number. 3. 1983 Soundwaves reissue. Same catalog number and cutting, new logo design and black & white factory sleeve, now showing NSD's street address. Bottom row, left to right: 4. 1983 Oink remake. This is the version that appeared on the 1984 Epic reissue. Vinyl Wakefield pressing; actual time is (3:27). 5. Bonus square: this is the back side of the wrap-around card containing Elmo & Patsy's 1983 "Christmas Millionaire" promo 45 on Oink 47. Like Joe and Betty Gibson at Nationwide Sound Distributors, the Oinksters spared no expense when it came to elaborate graphics design. ;) 6. 1985 Epic 15-05479 promo reissue of the previous year's Epic 34-04703 45. This was a Hall Of Fame series reissue. The "November, 1984" designation is another indication that this is a HOF series title. Actual and listed time is (3:26). Random thoughts: I doubt the 500 copies allegedly pressed for the original Oink 45 created any buzz beyond the Bay Area in 1979. There were undoubtedly more copies in the pipeline by the following year, when the record was serviced to country radio stations (which is probably where your callers had first heard or heard about it, Jim.) The country FM across the hall from our central Minnesota AC station had received the record and programmed it. There were huge phones at first, followed about two weeks later by the predictable backlash that it was a shockingly-inhumane portrayal of all things elderly, reindeer, eggnog, wig and fig. These were the same Minne-suh-HOO-tans who loved Yogi Yorgesson?? (No: central Minnesota's heritage was mostly German, not Scandahoovian. Big difference re: sense of humor.) NSD's involvement surprised me, since it veered a bit from their normal "package deal" business model: Aspiring country star/band pays "x" amount of dollars in return for for studio time, "x" number of finished 45s and related promotion. They obviously didn't need any new studio time here. There could be any number of reasons why the song was re-recorded: did NSD acquire the original Oink master in their distribution deal (which might explain Oink's own 1983 remake)? Was there a conscious decision to make the Epic version more polished (and a tad less countrified?) Who knows whether Elmo would remember correctly or not? (Last I checked, he was still alive and kicking.) I related my 1980 experience with "Grandma" in pitching the 1982 Soundwaves reissue to my PD at KOMA the day it arrived in the mail. He agreed to give it a few spins, and from there it just took off. I worked the Christmas morning shift and finally put the studio lines on hold. It was just insane... can't remember how many times I played it that day. Not a single complaint call that year, either. When I ran into my counterpart from OKC's #1 station at an awards show a few months later, he brought up the "Grandma" phenomenon, saying how they'd been forced onto the record due to listener requests. I asked if he'd played it the first time around in 1980, and he said that they had, but it hadn't stirred any interest. He was very gracious in crediting us for breaking the record wide open in the market. Oh... almost forgot: The upthread mention of Hannaford reminded me of vacationing in Bar Harbor, Maine. I found Honeycrisp apples in a big bin at the local Hannaford store and chuckled. The sight of them all tossed together like all the other apple varieties would've horrified the horticulturists back home at the University of Minnesota who'd developed and patented the variety, because Honeycrisps are very easily bruised. Consequently, they have to be hand-picked and packaged so that they don't jostle around in transport. My local Cub supermarket displays them in individually-molded layers. To see all that work (and the higher costs involved) undone in the bins at Hannaford came as a much greater shock than Rudolph's hoof marks on dear ol' grandma. ;) |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 7:57pm
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Yah is correct -- Elmo is still very much alive. I must
have him confused with Bobby Pickett or Alan O'Day or something. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 9:02pm
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No problem, Brian. But just to be safe, you might want to steer clear of the eggnog aisle at Vons. ;)
Forgot to mention this earlier: I concur with Jim's conclusion that there never was any Elmo 'N' Patsy LP issued on Soundwaves. I didn't exactly relish getting promotion calls from the Gibsons, who perennially pestered me to play their latest Billy Parker Soundwaves single (Billy happened to be the MD at Tulsa's KVOO, which put a listenable signal into OKC. Competitor or not, his records just weren't that great.) Had the Gibsons actually issued an Elmo 'N' Patsy LP, they most certainly would have been all over it. But they never mentioned one and I neither read of one nor was ever serviced with one. All the more reason to take Elmo's comments with a generous handful of salt (aisle 6 at King Soopers!) |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 10:15pm
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So, if I'm reading this correctly, there are two versions on the Oink label: the 1979 version and the 1983 version. Plus, the 1984 Epic remake is a third version.
If I'm not mistaken, there is another remake that Elmo did later, possibly in the '90s. We used to play it on Radio Disney when I first started working there, and I'm pretty sure I encouraged our MD to swap it out for the 1984 version. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 11:03pm
At the risk of drawing the wrath of jimct yet again (for proving him wrong), I was initially not going to respond to this thread, but now that Yah Shure has jumped in to apparently back him re: the non-existence of a pre-1984 Epic Elmo & Patsy album, a simple search on eBay earlier today revealed otherwise (even though I admit I'd never seen one before myself). Indeed, it DOES exist. The Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer album first came out on Oink 8223 in 1982, before being re-issued on Epic 39931 in '84. Just check all the photos (front & back cover, inner sleeve, and the Side One label) of this unsold copy from eBay seller "aloysgirl" on Dec. 3: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELMO-PATSY-Grandma-got-run-over-by-a-reindeer-ORIG-Private-wacky-CHRISTMAS-LP-/221325684704?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item338809efe0&nma=true&si=h4a71AFBFnawcHtdqQ13EyI5HbE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 - Original 1982 Oink pressing of Elmo & Patsy album - NOT Epic! So unless you want to split hairs where Elmo stated that the album was "distributed on Soundwaves" instead of simply saying it was on Oink in his e-mail response to Brian W. above, it seems his memory about everything he said in that e-mail was, in fact, spot-on, including how the first pressings of the 45 were on Oink, even though the name "Oink" didn't actually appear on the labels (something I'd already concluded myself during that same eBay search, before Yah Shure confirmed it in his initial post here)... SIDE NOTE: To be fair, having met about 100 hit-making acts from the '60s-'90s myself over the last 20 years (and in one case, even contributed a rare item of theirs to their own personal collection when asked by that person if he could have it), it does still amaze me at times how little some of them seem to know their own discographies! I often like to bring rare/unusual items of theirs when meeting them, and some of the reactions I've gotten over the years have been pretty surprising, lol. But yes, apparently like Petula Clark (haven't met her myself), based on my own encounters, there are also some who seem to know or recall everything... Oh, and I agree w/ the others here - good story, jimct. Peace... |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 11:17pm
Based on Elmo's e-mail response to Brian W. and the details provided by Yah Shure, I'm interpreting things this way: The original 1979 Oink 45 (that doesn't say "Oink" on the label) and both early '80s pressings on Soundwaves contain the first version of the song. It was then re-recorded in 1982 for the album on Oink 8223, and the second Oink 45 from 1983 was drawn from that, and thus contains the re-recording. Epic then picked up both the album & single in '84, and both of those contain the SAME re-recording that appeared on the Oink album and 1983 Oink 45 (in other words, I don't think the Epic label had them make a third version, as you suggest). But this is going strictly by interpretation of the info posted earlier in this thread, and NOT having actually heard any of these 45 or LP sources. Have no idea about a later ('90s) version... |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 11:29pm
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Thank you for clearing that up, 80smusicfreak. Based on Elmo's email
to Brian and your discovery of the Oink LP, I think it's logical to conclude that only two versions were released between '79 and '84. It appears that the Epic version is a straight reissue of the 1982 Oink LP remake. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 4:16am
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Thanks all, for all of the additional 45/LP details, insight, and positive
feedback about this song's thread. From my opening post, this topic was nothing but a 100% "fact-finding mission." 80smusicfreak, I truly have respect for you, for your amazing discography abilities. To me, your talents are right up there with "Research Royalty" - guys like Paul Haney's and Tim Neely's, in my opinion. And that's high cotton. I was truly hoping that you would chime in here, as this particular query is right in your personal wheelhouse. It's just that we've rarely, if ever, have had such a "history of a song's 45/LP release incarnations" thread on Pat's board before. It's just not something we do on here very often. Letter of the law, my entire topic is "OT". The song wasn't a Top 40 hit, per se. I just thought "Grandma..." was a special case. It is surely among the most unlikely additions ever to the "American Classics Songbook", given both its lyrics and its humble, self-pressed 45 beginnings. Besides, I'd recently read some details in its current Wikipedia entry that had given me pause, that made me decide to get to the truth about it, while obviously welcoming everyone else's help. The only time you and I ever bump heads on here, 80smusicfreak, in my opinion, is when you divert a thread off-topic, by raising mega-menusha release details when they aren't relevant to the topic raised. Most recently, your "Why is everyone omitting the fact that "I Go Blind" was the B-side of the "Hold My Hand" single?????", regarding its Top 40 airplay history. Because that point was completely irrelevant to the song's airplay discussion, since Top 40 radio had no knowledge/concern that the song was ever issued that way. To me, you sent that thread OT for a time, that's all. No biggie - free speech in allowed in America! :) FYI, I've been proven wrong time and time again - every researcher has - and I have absolutely no problem with it. All that matters is that we get all the release details sorted out correctly, as a team, in the end, right? I sincerely appreciate you here, 80smusicfreak, for coming up with that Oink LP release documentation. In fact, I am forever in your debt, for that piece of very valuable info. Peace and Happy Holidays to you as well! I never would've suspected that both Steve (Hykker) and Aaron would've already owned private-press 45 copies, like I just got off of eBay. Amazing. And after listening to that PP 45 a couple more times yesterday, I am now almost certain that they are the exact same recording as the initial Oink/Soundwaves 45s. That was the *main* reason that I wanted that PP 45 copy in the first place - because Wikipedia states that the Oink/Soundwaves 45 was a re-recording of the PP 45. I suppose it is a matter of personal interpretation whether or not you view the PP 45 as an "honorary Oink 45 release." I don't happen to. Despite the similarities, I need to actually see the word "Oink", at least somewhere on the label, while 80smusicfreak has a different take on that. Once again, to each his own. It seems that Elmo, after his divorce from Patsy, has done several re- recordings of the song, since 1992. I know nothing of them, but would like to eventually learn more about them, as well as locate the version that Aaron had played on Radio Disney (BTW, I love that Aaron suggested back then to his MD, that they "swap it out" for the 1984 version!) At this moment, to me, the #1 most burning issue is to unearth further details of a possible (perhaps likely, even) second Oink 45, that features exactly what would later appear on the Epic 34-04703 45. It would surely have a unique 45 stock #, right? I suspect that the prior arrangement Oink made with Soundwaves didn't include the 1982 Oink LP release/"Grandma..." re-sing (since John (YahShure) didn't hear from "The Gibsons" on it (love that story, John!)) I shall immediately resume my pursuit of completing this song's full discography details, utilizing these newly contributed findings. Sincere thanks to all for the solid help to date, my quality friends! |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 12:35pm
As I put all of the above information together, I'm pretty sure that #4 from John's list is exactly what you're looking for--the 1983 Oink "remake." Hopefully he can chime in to tell us for sure, but it would make sense if that 45 is what Epic reissued in 1984. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 3:37pm
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Aaron, reading John's release sequence in his post, I initially thought
that, too. But then, when I browsed the song's label scans attachment he provided, all of the non-Epic 45s had both the 1979 copyright date, and the stock #s I'd originally documented. Today, I acquired the 1982 Oink LP, that 80smusicfreak was thankfully razor sharp to spot for us. (It went unsold at an expired eBay auction last week, so I contacted the seller, who kindly reposted it for me, as a "Buy It Now" item.) I have found only one other early 80s Oink 45 by the duo - "Christmas Millionaire" (OK-RA47). It appears to have a 1983 copyright date (only a lowres scan is now available.) I also bought that item today. No flip side info was noted or scanned, so I'll find out when I receive it. For us, the easiest solution here would be that the newly recorded "Grandma..." was placed on this 45's B-side. (It's not unprecedented to place an old hit as the B-side of a newer 45 release.) FYI, "Christmas Millionaire" does not appear at all on their Oink/Epic LP. If "Grandma..." does not appear as the B-side of "Christmas Millionaire", I am then getting fairly close to concluding that Oink never actually did re-issue "Grandma...." as a 45, in its re-recorded, 1982 incarnation, and that the 1984 Epic 45 release was that version's initial single release. More details to follow...... |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 6:25pm
You are correct, Aaron. The 1983 Oink remake is the same version that Epic reissued in 1984, and I've added that clarification to my earlier post. As for the confusion Oink caused by retaining the 1979 release's catalog number, the answer probably rests with Grandma. Interestingly enough, the Epic 45 doesn't sound nearly as good as the '83 Oink 45. It's cut a bit quieter, with highs and lows attenuated. The pig beats the eye in this race, even if the pressing quality isn't quite on par. Jim, my promo copy of "Christmas Millionaire" is a double A-sider, on a green label, pressed on vinyl by PRC. It came in a clear plastic sleeve, to keep the record, its sleeve and the wraparound title card together. I was never serviced with any Oink LP. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 11:50pm
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John, thanks a million for the "it states a 1979 copyright, it has the exact
same Oink stock # as the 1979 Oink pressing, it has the exact same 45 label wording (right down to the letter), but the Oink 45 that you show actually includes the re-recorded version of 'Grandma...' that would soon appear on the Epic 45" info. I can't say that I've had too many other instances of a release scenario playing out quite that way (if at all), in my extensive research travels - it's pretty counter-intuitive. But there's a first for everything! The only Oink 45 "incarnation" for "Grandma..." that I happen to own, but that John didn't include in his very helpful photobucket 45 montage, is for the cream-colored label Oink 45, which actually states "Oink" on the label. Ironically, that happens to be the very first copy of it I ever owned - the one I purchased from Abe, up in Albany, NY. However, there does appear to be *one* distinguishing factor, though, between John's Oink 2984 45 and my Oink 2984 45 - the color used on the label. John's Oink 45 copy is on a white label, whereas my Oink 45 copy is on a cream-colored label. Might this label color difference be the *only* way to distinguish between these two different Oink 45 recordings, short of playing them? That's how it now looks to me...... Luckily, I bought 3 different "Grandma..."-related items on Friday morning: The Oink LP, the "Christmas Millionaire" 45 (thanks for the double A-side info, John; now I know what to expect there), and an Oink 2984 45 on the white label, simply because I didn't previously own a copy of it on a white label. But I've just now learned, with John's latest post, is that what I actually will be getting, when the latter arrives, will actually be the later recorded version of "Grandma....". (John, just as an aside, if were you looking to plug the one hole in your own "Grandma...." collection, I currently see a cream-colored, Oink 4984 45, for $4.49, as eBay item 251389434513 - another merchant has a copy for $4, but it happens to be offered by the *one* eBay merchant that I've had multiple instances of them way overstating the actual condition of their 45s, so buyer beware....) |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 14 December 2013 at 8:04am
So, I actually helped make a contribution to your vast music collection, jimct??? Who'da thought??? :-) Glad you got it...
Since you now seem to be in "completist" mode when it comes to this Christmas classic, in the spirit of giving, I just thought I'd go ahead and point out that there's still another label variation of the 45 that you missed, and that's just from checking the two copies w/ the cream-colored labels on Oink 2984 that you steered Yah Shure toward! Let's start w/ the $4.49 one you recommended, from eBay seller "nokomis_fan": http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251389434513 - Cream-label variation #1 Look at the very bottom of the label - the last line is an area code (707) phone no. for Oink, which represents the label's hometown of Windsor, CA... Now let's go to the $4.00 one from eBay seller "annie3857", which I assume is "the *one* eBay merchant that [you]'ve had multiple instances of them way overstating the actual condition of their 45s": http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elmo-Patsy-Grandma-Got-Run-Over-By-A-Reindeer-Christmas-7-45-rpm-OINK-VG-/370955322269?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item565ea9039d - Cream-label variation #2 Again, look at the very bottom of the label on their copy - seems this one ALSO has an area code (415) phone no. (for San Francisco), in addition to that (707) no.! You really didn't notice that??? Seems your collection is still incomplete, jimct... ;-) |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 14 December 2013 at 2:37pm
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I will spare the good folks on this board a long reply to your latest
comments, since you're clearly looking for another fight. I've been down this road with you before, and it's proven to be an unproductive waste of my time. My intention was to PM you instead, but then I thought, "Why bother?" Once again, I hope your latest comments made you feel better about yourself, 80smusicfreak. You maintaining a healthy level of self-esteem is very important to me. I will simply allow my 3500+ posts to speak for itself, regarding both my personal collection and my research abilities, and allow you to think whatever you like, good or bad, about my board contributions. I know that I don't happen to know everything. So how lucky is it for all of us that you do! Thanks again for your Oink LP assistance. |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 14 December 2013 at 3:53pm
| (*sigh*) In no way did I intend for my last post to be confrontational, jimct. So I apologize if it might have come across that way. (Geez, I even said "peace" at the end of my post to you yesterday.) I'm certainly a "completist" when it comes to certain artists, too, no question about it! And I really was being genuine about the size/scope of your music collection - while I've always admitted I'm not a huge fan of vinyl, that doesn't mean I don't think I'd have a blast if I could spend a whole day looking through it. :-) I honestly thought I'd spotted something new that would interest you (didn't say I already knew about it), because the label difference immediately jumped out at me when I checked the listings on eBay... |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 14 December 2013 at 4:34pm
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My bad then, 80smusicfreak...sorry. The tenor of an e-mail is sometimes
difficult to discern, as opposed to a conversation, where there's both voice inflection and facial expression to assist with "intent." I really thought I was sensing some "snarky" there - so glad I was mistaken. This board has always been, by far, the most civilized one I know. I appreciate that. All is well. Until next time, kind sir! :) |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 14 December 2013 at 4:57pm
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Jim, thanks for providing the information about that cream-colored label eBay listing, but I've done a tremendous amount of research on the subject, from which I've determined that admitting to owning any more than five copies of "Grandma" tends to make other people look askance at said individual in public, in addition to insisting that their kids maintain a safe distance of at least a hundred yards. This would cause a major scene at the Mall of America this time of year. Security tends to frown on such things, and, unlike the individual who recently tossed a thousand $1 bills from the fourth floor of the mall's rotunda - unannounced - on Black Friday, I'd rather not risk being banned for a year. Therefore, I must sadly leave any further detective work to you. ;)
There is another factor to consider in sorting this all out: the private-press aspect of the Oink 45(s). Like any other small-scale performers on a shoestring budget, Elmo 'N'/'n/& Patsy pressed up just enough copies to satisfy demand, based on their gigs and distributor/retail orders over the course of several years. That meant an initial pressing run of 500, then perhaps another 500, maybe another thousand or two, etc. Consequently, they would farm out their business to various manufacturers, depending on how many copies they needed at any given time and the associated per-unit costs (of the three Oink label 45s I have - including "Christmas Millionaire" - each one is pressed by a different manufacturer.) When it came time to re-record "Grandma," it probably made sense to E&P/Oink to retain the original catalog number and matrix numbers. It wasn't as though they had a plethora of other Oink singles vying for the marketplace; all they really cared about was having a record of "Grandma" available. Elmo no doubt felt that the re-recording significantly trumped the original, making it a better, more accurate representation of how the duo's sound had evolved, in addition to giving Oink a legs-up on the older version Soundwaves/NSD was still actively marketing. From a forward-thinking artist's standpoint, it made perfect sense: the new "Grandma" was the only one that mattered henceforth. Just be thankful Elmo didn't team up with Richard Carpenter! Given the press-on-demand nature of the Oink single, the white label copy you bought might not necessarily be the same version as the one I have. Remember that Clickettes record I mentioned upthread? "Grandma" on Oink is a much bigger roll of the "dice" than even that record. We're talking Forrest-Gump's-box-of-chocolates territory here. "Grandma" is arguably the textbook example of a truly grassroots-level recording effort that took several years, two versions and three different distribution channels to evolve and snowball into the runaway hit it became. It's a fascinating story, and we may never know exactly how many different incarnations of the Oink pressing there actually were. As you said, Jim, there's a first for everything. I'd say the most reliable way to determine an Oink 45's true lineage is by playing it. It's almost like sorting out the hog market reports on the radio years ago. Attention: Elmo and Richard Carpenter! Here's your next hit: "Barrows, gilts and grandmas always get me down...." ;) |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 15 December 2013 at 7:04am
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<Just be thankful Elmo didn't team up with Richard Carpenter!>
I wonder what some of their titles would be like .. Top Of the Reindeer Goodbye to Grandma (They Long To Be) Close to Elmo Please Mr. Reindeer We've Only Just Begun To Run Grandma Over Calling Grandmas of Interplanetary Craft I Won't Last a Day Without Patsy All You Get from Love is a Reindeer Touch Me When We're Running (Over Grandma) And excerpts of lyrics would include: *You can say there's no such thing as an unaltered, un-remixed Carpenters recording (but somewhere in the deep vaults, it exists) *Don't you remember I wanted private-press baby, you said you could only find an Epic disc baby, baby 'though I'd settle for Soundwaves baby, I love Oink, I really do! |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 15 December 2013 at 9:44am
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Gordon, those are hilarious!!
The video of "Calling Grandmas" could easily be set in a retirement community. Golf carts masquerading as UFOs... I'm in! Looking forward to the CD. ;) |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 15 December 2013 at 10:29am
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I sense the genesis of still another international hit, for our resident, already
award-winning songwriter (Gordon), in this very thread!!!! |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 15 December 2013 at 10:35pm
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As long as Richard C. doesn't get his hands on Gordon's
recording and remixes it, we're good. :) |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 17 December 2013 at 6:38am
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lol. BTW, last night, I was looking at the tv guide and had to laugh when I saw at 8 p.m. was "Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer" - a one-hour cartoon.
Oh, and it was (possibly) yet another recording of the song. It wasn't the famous version, and I'm guessing it was one of the '90s recordings Elmo (& Patsy?) did. |
Posted By: Steve Carras
Date Posted: 17 December 2013 at 5:45pm
LOL! Love it! ------------- You know you're really older when you think that younger singer Jesse McCartney's related in anyway to former Beatle Paul McCartney. |
Posted By: musicmanatl
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 12:54pm
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On a lighter note, I fairly certain I remember how this record spawned a local parody in New Orleans back in '82 or '83. The sheriff for Orleans Parish, Charles Foti, was arrested for drunk driving around that time (although in true New Orleans fashion, this didn't derail his political career in the slightest). B-97, the big top 40 in the market, played a version called "Grandma Got Run Over By Charles Foti". I wish I could remember the words, but this is just one aspect of New Orleans I love. lol
Frank |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 6:16pm
For the record, as I often do w/ people I like - or at least feel I know fairly well - when speaking w/ them face-to-face, I admittedly like to use a lot of sarcasm. At times, that translates into my writing style as well, which I guess got lost in the interpretation of that post of mine, jimct. And as further proof that I wasn't "looking for another fight", since I just received it in the mail today (hence the wheels were already in motion prior to my misconstrued post), I'll now come forward and admit that I "secretly" made an Elmo & Patsy purchase of my own last weekend! :-) You see, while performing that same search on eBay back on Thursday the 12th - which netted the discovery of the original Oink pressing of the Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer LP that I posted the link to, and you ultimately bought (has it arrived yet???) - I spotted what I strongly suspected was another interesting E&P item, so I bought it for myself. It arrived earlier today, and I'm now happy to report that my suspicions were confirmed. It turns out the original 1982 pressing on Oink 8223 exists on cassette as well. :-) Over the years, I've probably seen nearly a thousand copies of the 1984 re-issue on Epic 39931 on cassette, but never bought it, even though I've always liked the title track. So last week I decided to also check the cassette listings for the album on eBay, and lo & behold, one seller's listing jumped out at me when I saw the photo, as it clearly had a slightly different cover from the Epic pressings. That told me it had to be one of two things: either it was an import, or a very rare original 1982 Oink pressing. So w/o asking the seller any questions/details about it, I decided to go w/ my gut, and made the purchase - and sure enough, it proved to be the original U.S. Oink pressing! Here's the listing for it w/ the cover photo: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELMO-PATSY-GRANDMA-GOT-RUN-OVER-BY-A-REINDEER-CASSETTE-/251402931091?pt=Music_Cassettes&hash=item3a88c84b93&nma=true&si=h4a71AFBFnawcHtdqQ13EyI5HbE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 - Original 1982 Oink cassette And here's what the Epic re-issue looks like, just in case anyone wants to compare the (slight) differences: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELMO-PATSY-Grandma-Got-Run-Over-By-A-Reindeer-Christmas-Holiday-album-cassette-/151185045397?pt=Music_Cassettes&hash=item233354b795 - 1984 Epic re-issue cassette One other interesting side note: The original Oink vinyl LP features "Percy, the Puny Poinsettia" as track 3 on Side One, w/ "Joy to the World" as track 2 on Side Two - yet on the cassette version, those two tracks are reversed. But at any rate, I can now say that I own an original Oink pressing of the album as well (and of course, it doesn't exist on CD!)... :-) |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 6:36pm
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Yes, 80smusicfreak, all my purchases have arrived, just in the "St. Nick" of
time, for the big day this year! (And congrats to you on your rare Oink cassette score!) -The 1982 Oink LP that your skilled "eagle-eye" first spotted is now in my possession. Excellent condition. I'm very happy to own it. -And, much to my relief, that white label, Oink 2984 45, with "Christmas" still as its flip side, is, despite the 1979 copyright on its label, the same as Yah Shure's copy is: the re-recorded version that would appear two years later, in 1984, on Epic. (deadwax info "8201S-A", followed by "15423(3)+"). I now believe that all the questions I'd initially asked, despite getting myself a bit derailed, facts-wise, along the way, have now been answered. And with that, I say, "My thanks to all, and to all a good night......" |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 01 September 2015 at 10:34am
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I've been having quite the discussion on this recording
on two other websites lately. In, what I assume is order of release, I have the disc on the following labels: Elmo 'n' Patsy (aka Oink? aka Kim-Pat?) (first recording) Oink (tan label with black print, first recording) Soundwaves (first recording, same stampers as the Oink tan label) [apparently from all that I have read since 9 am this morning is that there is a second Soundwaves pressing that uses the same stampers as the Elmo 'n' Patsy/Kim-Pat 45, which I have not ever come across, but at least two people seem to indicate as owning] Oink (white label with red print, Epic re-recordings) [I was too tired reading through everything this morning so I don't think I ever saw it officially answered... did the Oink LP for GGROBAR contain the remakes of both sides? If so, there might be some quasi-legitimacy to this white label Oink pressing, but if Soundwaves had the originals out still, there would be a lot of confusion] Wikipedia is wrong in saying that the Oink 45 contains the re-recordings, strictly speaking, as only one pressing of it seems to contain the re-recordings...and whether or not it's a legitimate pressing is another thing. ------------- Live in stereo. |