Johnny Rivers-"Where Have All The..."
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Topic: Johnny Rivers-"Where Have All The..."
Posted By: jimct
Subject: Johnny Rivers-"Where Have All The..."
Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 2:34pm
| My commercial 45, confirmed as Imperial 66133, has a listed time of (2:58), but an actual time of (3:08). Pat, you currently have no database note for this song per se, but for two of the CDs featuring this track, you state either ":12 or :14 seconds longer than the 45". Based on these statements, you seem to have gotten a previous 45 timing of (3:02) for this song, :06 shorter than my timing above, so you may want to double check your (3:02) timing at some point. |
Replies:
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 6:04pm
| Jim, I just timed my commercial copy of "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" again and again I come up with a time of (3:02) not (2:58) as stated on the record label. Matrix number is IM-6127. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 11:19pm
|
Pat, I just timed my promotional copy of the 45, Imperial 66133, and i came up with a time of (3:06), not (2:58) which is stated on the label. The matrix info is IM 6127 (there is no dash) and is followed by one machine stamped X. On the flipside there are 3 machine stamped X's in the dead wax. This is a styrene pressing, that could possibly make a difference. In my digital copy, when maximizing the audio on the fade out of the song, it ends at 3:06 sharp, not one moment past 3:06, and it absolutely does not run 3:08.
I find it quite interesting that three people can come up with 3 different playing times on the 45. Now I am definitely curious about Jim's matrix information in the deadwax of his commercial 45, and whether both of your pressings are on vinyl or styrene. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 01 October 2009 at 8:32pm
| Pat, I appreciate the re-timing of your 45. Tom, my 45 is styrene, and the deadwax info is "IM-6127" (a dash is present), with a "triangle 58650" also appearing about three inches to the right. Pat, does your 45 also include the later deadwax info mine does, since our IM-6127 info looks to be identical? I just re-timed my 45 as well, and I again got (3:08). In fact, my 45's fade hasn't even started yet, at Pat's ending (3:02) mark! My re-timing is actually about 3:08 9/10th, and I could've easily gone with (3:09). I'm betting we have three different 45 pressing runs involved here, and that we've all timed our 45s exactly correctly - they're just all very slightly different animals, that's all. Thanks, guys! |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 01 October 2009 at 10:01pm
|
Thought I'd chime in and add my findings to those of the other members of the T40MOCD Timing Association. These two commercial 45s - also listed as (2:58) - were the most common Imperial pressings that were available in the upper midwest during the mid-'60s:
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/YahShure/JohnnyRivers-WhereHaveAllTheFlowers.jpg - RCA pressing , vinyl. Actual time is (3:06.1) Matrix # is IM-6127-4 http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/YahShure/JohnnyRivers-WhereHaveAllTheFlow-2.jpg - Monarch pressing , styrene. Actual time is (3:03.3). The fade on this one is truncated very abruptly. Has the Monarch logo and "Ä58650" in addition to the IM-6127 matrix number in the deadwax. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 01 October 2009 at 10:26pm
|
Yah Shure wrote:Posted By: BillCahill
Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 4:00am
|
My copy matches Yah Shure's 3:03.3 copy exactly, also on styrene.
The T40MOCD Timing Association? That's a good one!! |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 8:52am
Jim, your stopwatch will be relieved to know that it won't be headed for the dumpster anytime soon. Since Bill's Monarch copy matches mine, I'd say that your electric utility is not delivering all of the juice you're paying for. ;) I think we've just proven that Monarch cut more than one A-side plate for this record. Perhaps the first one was damaged before the press run was finished. That might explain why the same deadwax markings were used again. BTW, the numbers following the triangle symbol on Monarch pressings (which is also the Greek letter "delta") is typically referred to as the "delta number." Bill, hey, if the shoe fits, why not? No demolition derbies, though! Once we get all of the timings for everything verified, we can move on to the sewing circles and book reviews. :) |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 9:42am
|
My copy has no delta numbers at all, so now i'm very curious as to who would've pressed it up. It also perplexes me as to why there are so many different pressings of the 45, each with slightly different times...did Imperial send out a longer mono mixdown to each various plant and tell them to edit the song down aproximately around 2:58 themselves? ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 11:33am
|
Tom, I just added links to scans of my two labels, but judging from your description of all of the "X"s on your styrene copy, it sure sounds like it's from Shelley Products on Long Island. On the Liberty and Imperial 45s I do have from Shelley Products, the type font is quite plain, thin and undistinguished, compared to that used on the Monarch labels. In addition, there is usually a raised "X" in the deadwax, as opposed to an "X" etched or stamped into the styrene.
Shelley's pressings were also notorious for having labels that did not adhere very well to the plastic. The lion's share of the Shelley-pressed used copies of The Wailers' "Tall Cool One" that I've ever seen have no labels left on them at all. In my experience, Shelley's styrene copies wore out even more quickly than other styrene pressings! (Edited to add scan of The Hollies' http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/YahShure/Hollies-ImAlive.jpg - "I'm Alive" from roughly the same vintage, pressed by Shelley Products. Notice most of the raised "X" to the northeast in the deadwax, the sloppily-applied label glue, and the blurry Imperial logo and "a subsidiary of..." printing. The labels on these pressings would often catch along the hole of the sleeve, sometimes pulling the entire label off. There are also several large bubbles in the label just to the right of the IR logo and then down. Mind you, this was the same pressing company that often printed the label copy on Amy/Mala/Bell 45s directly onto the plastic without using any paper label at all.) |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 5:37pm
An Imperial 45 in vinyl!! You midwest guys had it made. I don't think I've ever seen a commercial Liberty/Imperial 45 that wasn't styrene. AFAIK the only Imperial single I have on vinyl is a promo of "Poor Side Of Town" (I have 2 promos of this, the other is styrene).
I'm guessing my promo of Vikki Carr's "It Must Be Him" is a Shelley...the label on the B side is missing, and I had to re-glue it on the hit side. As far as wear goes, all Liberty group styrene singles wore out pretty fast, this is no worse than any other I have. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 7:08pm
Well yeah, but that only partially atones for those nice Specialty Atlantics you got in the Northeast. :) We had RCA Imperials from the early '60s through 1965. My copy of Cher's "Where Do You Go" (Imperial 66136) was the last of my RCA-pressed pink-white-and-black Imperials. Although the copy of "Bus Stop" I bought new in '66 was a Monarch styrene, I did find a used vinyl RCA pressing many years later, and it was the only one I'd ever seen on the green-red-white-black Imperial label. The Monarchs were just as easily cue-burned as any other styrene 45s, but the high frequencies on the Shelleys seemed to sound ragged after the first play (like on "Dusty" by The Rag Dolls on Mala.) The Monarchs usually held up better than that. My copy of "Bus Stop" certainly did. Your Vikki Carr description sounds exactly like a Shelley job (see scan added to my last post.) Their slogan could have been "If it's a 'mystery record' to you, it's sure to be a Shelley!" :) |