michael jackson "wanna be startin"
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Topic: michael jackson "wanna be startin"
Posted By: edtop40
Subject: michael jackson "wanna be startin"
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 8:22am
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i know that it's in one of the m.j. threads, but i can't find it so i'm starting a seperate thread...
the cd essential states 1983 - WANNA BE STARTIN' SOMETHIN' (S) (4:16) Epic/Legacy 94287 The Essential (edit of the LP version in an unsuccesful attempt at recreating the 45 version) what and where exactly, is this version diffrent than the vinyl 45?....i've listened to them several times, with headphones, side by side, and can't locate the differences.....my ears must be failing me... ------------- edtop40 |
Replies:
Posted By: mstgator
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 8:52am
The most obvious difference to me is around 3:47. At the part where Michael sings "Sing it to the world...", the version on the 45 is a clean edit, while the version on Essential has a sloppy fade-in on the word "Sing". (This is from the iTunes download, so it's possible the physical CD of Essential differs.) |
edtop40 wrote:Posted By: Roscoe
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 8:56am
Here's a quote from Brian W. from an old thread on the Essential CD that explains the difference:
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Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 8:59am
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And you can hear the bad edit point on the version on "Essential" right at "Billie Jean is always talkin'" -- there's the tail end of an instrument... sounds like monkey going, "Ooh ooh ooh"... that is present on the instrumental break at that point on the LP. But that little remnant of it is totally gone in the 45 version.
at what point, time wise, is this poor edit?? ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 12:10pm
At 1:11, right on the word "Billie." You don't hear that little "whoop" in the one channel? Not there on the true 45 version, which is on all the "King of Pop" compilations. It's not that it's necessarily a poor edit -- it's the the 45 is a remix, and there's no way to edit out that overlapping horn using the album version. I just noticed another bad edit at 3:47. The "sing" on "Sing it to the world" is clipped. It's not like that on the 45. Also, listen to the electronic drum "crash" at 3:43, 3:48, etc: "Mama say mama sa ma ma cu sa [crash]." On the 45 version, there's lots of echo on that drum crash. There's almost none on the "Essential" version. Scary to think that we, amateurs, did a better job of editing this down than whatever professional responsible for the re-edit did. |
Posted By: chendagam
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 9:38pm
| I still do not understand why Sony didn't just use the original single masters. |
Posted By: Nick2341
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 12:30am
Laziness. Easier to rip a track from a CD and have some intern edit it down. |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 5:44am
It could have been any number of reasons. Tapes may be mis-filed, cryptically labeled or missing. Maybe no one realized that the single was mixed differently as well as edited...we're talking a 25+ year old song here. Keep in mind that "Thriller" sold many, many more times as many copies as the single...many would consider the album verison the "definitive" one. How many people would even notice...I for one didn't know the single & album versions were different until I read it here. |
Posted By: chendagam
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 1:09pm
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I always knew that "wanna be" was shorter on the 45. I was only 10 when it was released and begged my mom to buy it for me. She said "you already have the album" but I had to convince her it was different by showing her the run times. I never noticed it was a different mix until the discussion started here.
I understand that things can go missing but seems like the top selling album of all time would have a better filing system. All the remixes and edits should be together. Where again can you find the official 45 version on CD of "wanna be"?? |
Posted By: Nick2341
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 1:43pm
| The King Of Pop compilations. It's on all of them. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 10:47pm
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The easiest way to tell the actual 45 version from all
others is where Michael whispers the line "You're a vegetable". On the 45, it's loud and distinct. ------------- |
Posted By: budaniel
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 7:21am
| why would anyone want to listen to an edit of one of Michael Jackson's best jams ever??? Every time I hear this song on the radio, it drives me crazy that so much of the song is cut out!!! |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 7:34am
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is there any "king of pop" cd that has better sound quality than others?
------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: Nick2341
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 8:32am
Nope. They're all the same masters. |
Posted By: Roscoe
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 9:08am
For some, the longer LP version may be too much of a good thing. Also, the 45 mix is slightly better than the LP mix, IMO, because of little touches like the way the "you're a vegetable" line jumps out. The best of both worlds may be the 12" version, which basically uses the same mix as the 45 (except for that small difference on the "Billie Jean is always talking" line), but runs even longer. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 9:46am
I'm pretty sure the 12" version is also a unique mix, slightly different than both the 45 and LP mixes. For instance, during the opening chorus, it was noted by Brian that one of the lines ("you're too high to get over") is a different sing. Also, when editing down the 12" to match the 45, they don't sync up exactly. |
Posted By: chendagam
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 9:21pm
| So it doesn't matter which edition of "king of pop" we buy...UK or Australia? What about the "ultimate collection??" |
Posted By: Nick2341
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 10:46pm
| The (proper) single version is only on King Of Pop. |
Posted By: Roscoe
Date Posted: 09 July 2009 at 7:12pm
I recall that earlier thread and I have relistened to the various versions again. I can't hear any difference in the vocal on that particular line between the LP, 12" and 45 versions. It sounds like "ta high to get over" on all three. I think I might hear a small difference on the very next line ("too low to get under"), though. On the 45, it sounds like this line may start with a very brief, faint "your" (i.e. "your too low to get under"). Is it possible that the vocal difference that you refer to is on this line? Very nitpicky, to be sure, but I'm trying to recreate the 45 from the best possible sources because I absolutely hate the mastering on the "King Of Pop" import. The best sounding version that is closest to the 45 mix is the "12 Inch Mixes" CD. However, I did discover another mix difference between the 12" and 45: on the lines in question, there is a click percussion effect that is much louder in the mix on the 12" than the 45. A frustrating situation. If only they hadn't applied so much digital compression to boost the levels on the King Of Pop CD. But virtually all the MJ reissues and comps have used a similar mastering style, with the exception of the Thriller SACD. It would be interesting to hear the story about how these small differences arose between the 45 and 12", since I would have assumed they were created in the same mixing session. But we'll probably never know. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:14am
Thanks for refreshing my memory. Yes, it's on the line "too low to get under," not the one I mentioned previously. And you are right that there are some differences in the loudness of some of the percussion and other elements, although the differences are very small. |
Posted By: Nick2341
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:07am
I don't think much multiband compression was used in this case, but all of the songs clip (except for disc 3 in the UK set). For some songs, the distortion isn't noticeable, but others it's bad. I think WBSS is one where it's not so bad even though it is pretty loud. |
Posted By: Roscoe
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:21am
Yes, it's not distortion or clipping that's the problem...they just squashed the dynamic range to boost the volume. It's just too loud. As an aside, I ended up reverting back to my old needledrop of the 45 for WBSS. The King of Pop CD is too loud as noted, and there are too many small differences to stitch together the 45 version from the 12 Inch Mixes CD. Maybe with the renewed interest in MJ's music there may be a market for a "Complete Singles Collection" release, utilizing all the true 45 versions from the master tapes. If such a collection were mastered well, I would definitely buy it. |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 12 July 2009 at 12:05pm
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also.....pat.....the vinyl 45's face states the run time as 4:15 but it actually runs 4:19 ------------- edtop40 |