Quicksand - Martha & Vandellas
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Printed Date: 01 May 2025 at 1:24am
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Topic: Quicksand - Martha & Vandellas
Posted By: Pat Downey
Subject: Quicksand - Martha & Vandellas
Date Posted: 03 January 2009 at 3:25pm
| Several weeks ago when Jim and I were exchanging emails regarding Martha & The Vandellas single "Quicksand" as it appears on the Complete Motown Singles, I noticed that there was something fishy in Detroit. There are two versions of Quicksand appearing on the Complete Motown Singles and they are titled version 1 and version 2 and both versions begin with a bass drum beat. Jim sent me a copy of his original vinyl 45 of Quicksand and lo and behold there is no opening bass drum beat on his single which he swears is an original domestic pressing of this song. So did Harry Weinger screw up by not placing all vinyl pressings of Quicksand on the Complete Motown Singles or what???? |
Replies:
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 04 January 2009 at 1:28pm
| Apparently so, Pat. My original http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/YahShure/MarthaTheVandellas-Quicksand.jpg - commercial 45 (pressed by RCA) is just like Jim's, with no opening bass drum beat. |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 04 January 2009 at 6:47pm
| Does anyone have an original 45 of Quicksand that does start with a bass drum beat? |
Posted By: JMD1961
Date Posted: 11 June 2010 at 3:18pm
| Not an answer to the question of this thread, but I thought I'd point out that my copy of Time-Life's "Classic Rock - 1964: Shakin' All Over" contains this track, but it's not noted in the DB. |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 06 July 2010 at 7:55pm
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First pressings of this track have no opening bass drum beat. Second pressings forward have the bass drum beat. All first pressings I have seen have emanated from RCA Victor's Indianapolis, Indiana plant. Second pressings onward I have seen are all ARP (American Record Pressing) made in Owosso, Michigan. Our UK Tamla-Motown EMI pressing is the second version and sounds the best of our 5 different pressings we own. We also have a Canadian pressing which is superb. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 3:58pm
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My copy of the 45 is a styrene pressing and is missing the opening drumbeat. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 11 May 2013 at 12:32pm
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my commercial 45 issued as gordy 7025 contains the drum
intro.....the run out groove etching is 'PK4M-5343-2A' ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 30 October 2021 at 4:58am
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There's much confusion with this one. For anyone who can sort out the
mess, here are my findings: Mono versions: 1) A version without an opening drumbeat (I found two 45s like this on YouTube). The vocal starts at 0:23 with "Quicksand". Runs 2:36. This is on "The Ultimate Collection". From above, seems to be the "common" 45 version (if we can assign such a title to one). The two versions on The Complete Motown Singles Vol. 3: 1963: 2) The longer one, marked "(first pressing)" opens with a "clean" drumbeat. Vocal starts at 0:29 with "Quicksand". Runs 2:45. 3) The second version, marked "second pressing" also starts with a drumbeat, but not the same as the other "clean" drumbeat. There's a bit of "echoey vocal" over the drum. Vocal starts at 0:23 with "Like Quicksand". Runs 2:36. I question the authenticity of this one (perhaps mono 1966 "Greatest Hits"?) Stereo versions (all with clean drumbeat): 4) One marked "LP version". Vocal starts at 0:23 with "Like Quicksand". Runs 2:33. I can't seem to find a parent LP for this - it was not on on "Heat Wave". Seems this version was first issued on stereo May 1966 LP "Greatest Hits". 5) The May 1966 "A Collection Of 16 Original Big Hits, Volume 3" version. Vocal starts at 0:29 with "Like Quicksand". Runs 2:42. Strange that the above two versions differ, yet both stereo LPs were issued May 1966. 6) "The Motown Box" version, marked "remixed 45 version". Vocal starts at 0:24 with "Quicksand". Runs 2:45. This does not match any of the above versions. So, looking at the mono issues, what's up? I would go with 1) being legit, but I'm not sure about 2) and 3). I would like to confirm if the "other (1st) 45" is indeed 2) above. Then there's the vocal start time, the "Quicksand" vs. "Like Quicksand" vocal, the opening drumbeat and timing differences...what a mess! Can anyone offer up any other "original" 45s for this? Or knowledge? I believe it's a challenge! edtop40 and KentT, can you offer more specifics on your 45s? ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 14 April 2025 at 3:30am
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I started to try to figure out which versions are from where & when, but ran out of time. So for the benefit of Ron or whoever wants to continue the research
Some differences to listen for: mono or stereo? opening drum beat present? opening beat includes echo tail of what sounds like the "4" from a count-off? vocal harmonies abruptly cut off by horn stabs at 0:11? 4 bars of instrumental or 6 before lyrics start? sax around 0:18 is mostly staccato (halting), or partially legato (notes join together)? lyrics begin with "Like quicksand" or just "Quicksand"? heavy reverb on drum break near end? |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 14 April 2025 at 3:49am
Hmmm... If the latter two tracks appeared on The Complete Motown Singles Vol. 3: 1963, then this would strongly suggest that they were most likely issued on some commercial 45 pressings, given how those box set compilations were meticulously dedicated and devoted to Motown's singles output, right? Or is anyone aware of any examples of tracks appearing on the Complete Motown Singles series that never actually saw the light of day on a 45 pressing? (Paging Brian W! If anyone would know the answer to this question, it's probably him!) |
davidclark wrote:Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 14 April 2025 at 7:01am
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There are a few mistakes on those box sets, so anything is possible. I seem to recall a wrong mix of a Junior Walker song being used, and for sure there was a wrong mix of "Mama's Pearl" by Jackson 5. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 14 April 2025 at 11:54am
| I remember when the Complete Motown Singles box sets first came out, Brian W and others were corresponding with the compilation producer Harry Weinger regarding several incorrect versions that appeared on the series, and Weinger reportedly suggested that he was going to look into reissuing new discs with the corrected versions on them. I don't know what ultimately became of that, but I do recall being impressed at the painstaking lengths that Weinger underwent to try to get everything accurately represented on those box sets. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 14 April 2025 at 12:14pm
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It seems they left no stone unturned, but given the huge scope of the box sets and massive number of songs each one covers, I don't fault the producers if a few things slipped through the cracks. It's possible the "second pressing" version was labeled as such on a tape they pulled from the vault, but did they really have ALL the original 45s, including pressing variations, to check each version against what was on the tapes? ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 14 April 2025 at 12:59pm
Agreed... As kids today might say, no shade being thrown here against Weinger and company! 
|
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 15 April 2025 at 7:41pm
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A hit released in late 1963. Non-hit mono mix from (supposed) first pressings of 45 (if they exist at all) It's on Hip-O Select's Complete Motown Singles Vol. 3 1963 Disc 5 (2005), listed as "First Pressing", although I can't find any evidence that this was ever released on vinyl. I believe that this is the full performance of the song, running out to 2:45. All the other configurations described below can be edited from this full performance, albeit with different mixes/panning/effects. The track starts with a bass drum hit. The clap track disappears at 0:12 for a 4-beat horn fill (not much going on in the fill). After the horn fill, there are 48 beats of instrumental riffing before the vocals start. At the end of the riffing, there's a horn note, followed by the word "quicksand" at 0:29. There's a reasonable amount of reverb on the drums in the break from 2:09 to 2:15. The song fades starting at 2:42, on the word "closer". By 2:44, the volume is way down to about -30 dB. The full fade ends around 2:45. Hit mono mix from later pressings of 45 I found at least five different 45 dubs on YouTube, and all were this mix. It runs 2:37. This version is on both US and UK 45s and the mono Greatest Hits LP. This version deletes the bass drum hit and starts with the snare and horns. The clap track disappears at 0:11 for a 4-beat horn fill (not much going on in the fill). After the horn fill, there are 32 beats of instrumental riffing before the vocals start. (The full take has 48 beats.) The clap track is pushed way out in front during the riffing. At the end of the riffing, there's a horn note, followed by the word "quicksand" at 0:24. There's an utterly insane amount of reverb on the drums in the break from 2:03 to 2:08. The song fades starting at 2:31, on the word "quicksand". The full fade ends around 2:37. The hit mono mix first appeared on CD on Motown's 2-CD Live Wire! The Singles 1962-1972 (1993), where it sounds just fine. The same analog transfer is used on Rhino's The R&B Box: Thirty Years Of Rhythm & Blues (1994). There's a different analog transfer on Motown's Ultimate Collection (1998). It has a very different EQ than Live Wire and has a much smaller dynamic range than that disc. I think I prefer the mastering on Live Wire. Non-hit mono mix from Motown Yesteryear 45 Luckily, a YouTube user named Mr. Vinyl 67 uploaded a dub of the Motown Yesteryear 45 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJYx4LgGTYQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJYx4LgGTYQ I don't know if this mix originated on that 45 (released in 1973 as Motown Y 535F), but there it is. The track starts with the bass drum hit, but there's something over the drum sound, like a trailing note from a previous track. It's odd, and it's not on the "First Pressing" version described above. The clap track disappears at 0:12 for a 4-beat horn fill (not much going on in the fill). After the horn fill, there are 32 beats of instrumental riffing before the vocals start. (The full take has 48 beats.) The end of the riffing is different than the hit version, probably because the edit is in a different place than the hit version. The first vocals are "like quicksand" at 0:24. There's a reasonable (not an insane) amount of reverb on the drums in the break from 2:03 to 2:08. The song fades starting at 2:27, on the word "deeper". The fade ends around 2:35. This mix is available on CD as the "Second Pressing" version on Hip-O Select's Complete Motown Singles Vol. 3 1963 Disc 5 (2005). So this version really did appear on a 45, just not one from 1963 or 1964. On this CD, it runs 2:35. The same analog transfer is used on Motown's 50th Anniversary : The Singles Collection 1962-1972 (2013). There's a different analog transfer on Motown's Motown Classic Hits Vol. IV (1995). It has nice sound and a great dynamic range, but the opening drum beat is edited out and it starts with the snare and horns. You can tell from the waveform that it was edited after-the-fact; the waveform starts off relatively sharply here, unlike the gradual lead-in that you get from analog tape edit done for the hit 45 version. 1966 stereo mix from Greatest Hits LP "Quicksand" wasn't on any album before Greatest Hits. I think this is considered to be the "hit" stereo version, even though it came out over two years after the mono 45. It runs about 2:34. The track starts with a bass drum hit. The clap track doesn't disappear at 0:12 for the 4-beat horn fill (not much going on in the fill). After the horn fill, there are 32 beats of instrumental riffing before the vocals start. (The full take has 48 beats.) The end of the riffing is different than the mono hit version, probably because the edit is in a different place than the hit version. The first vocals are "like quicksand" at 0:24. There's a relatively small amount of reverb on the drums in the break from 2:04 to 2:09. The song fades starting at 2:27, on the word "deeper". The fade ends around 2:34. This version appeared first on CD on Motown's Compact Command Performances 24 Greatest Hits (1986), where it runs 2:34 and sounds just fine. The same analog transfer is used on:
I think, but can't confirm, that Motown's Martha And The Vandellas Greatest Hits (1987) also has this version. Non-hit 1966 (1964?) stereo mix from A Collection Of 16 Original Big Hits Volume 3 LP Discogs gives two contradictory dates for this release. This is most definitely not considered to be the "hit" stereo version. It runs 2:42. The track starts with a bass drum hit. The clap track disappears at 0:12 for a 4-beat horn fill (not much going on in the fill). After the horn fill, there are 48 beats of instrumental riffing before the vocals start. The clap track resumes for this 48 beats. At the end of the riffing, there's a horn note, followed by the words "like quicksand" at 0:29. There's a reasonable amount of reverb on the drums in the break from 2:09 to 2:15. The song fades starting at 2:38, on the word "quicksand". The full fade ends around 2:42. I have this mix on Motown's A Collection Of 16 Big Hits Volume 3 (1989). The same analog transfer is used on Hip-O's Martha And The Vandellas Gold (2006). My recommendations The hit versions For the hit mono 45 version, go with Motown's 2-CD Live Wire! The Singles 1962-1972 (1993). For the 1966 stereo mix from Greatest Hits LP, go with Motown's Compact Command Performances 24 Greatest Hits (1986). The non-hit versions For the non-hit mono supposed first pressing of the 45 version (which may not have been released on vinyl), go with Hip-O Select's Complete Motown Singles Vol. 3 1963 Disc 5 (2005). For the non-hit mono Motown Yesteryear 45 version, go with Hip-O Select's Complete Motown Singles Vol. 3 1963 Disc 5 (2005), which you already own from the previous recommendation. For the non-hit 1966 (1964?) stereo mix from A Collection Of 16 Original Big Hits Volume 3 LP, go with Motown's A Collection Of 16 Big Hits Volume 3 (1989). ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 15 April 2025 at 8:38pm
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Oops... I missed one. Non-hit 2005 stereo remix by Tom Moulton It's on Shout Factory's 4-CD The Motown Box (2005). The intro is edited (32 beats, rather than 48), and the outro does indeed extend a little beyond the "first pressing" 45 version. It runs 2:45. I should point out that none of the mono mixes described above are fold-downs of any of the stereo mixes. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 18 April 2025 at 2:46am
| Thanks for sorting out all these versions of Martha & the Vandellas' "Quicksand", Ron, and referring us to the best-sounding CD sources for each. This is very helpful! |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 19 April 2025 at 4:36am
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Thanks for the overview and recommendations, Ron. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. For the Greatest Hits stereo LP mix, in headphones, I prefer the mastering on the Motown 30th Anniversary Collection. All they did, really, was make the bass be closer to mono. |