Buckinghams - Susan (2:17 DJ promo)
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Topic: Buckinghams - Susan (2:17 DJ promo)
Posted By: eriejwg
Subject: Buckinghams - Susan (2:17 DJ promo)
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 4:56pm
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Can anyone help me track down a 2:17 DJ 45 for this one? I ordered the 2:48 promo, and alas as Yah Sure indicated, it cannot be edited to duplicate the 2:17 edit.
I have the Bartley stereo recreation, but as has been noted, it's not exact. I've checked eBay, discogs.com, GEMM, Musicstack and 45s.com. |
Replies:
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 6:37pm
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John, my copy isn't quite as clean as I'd like, but I can get you a dub. In my opinion, the mono (2:17) remix sounds inferior to the mono (2:48) 45 mix. I played around with the drumbeat at the edit on the 2:48 45, and by adding enough reverb, it can approximate the same drumbeat on the DJ edit, although not duplicate it.
Does the 2:48 promo copy you ordered not also include the 2:17 edit? Perhaps only the reservice had the short/long configuration. 
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Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 6:50pm
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Yah Sure...
Yes, the 2:48 promo I ordered is 2:48 on both sides and does not show reservice. Musta been a first pressing. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 7:54pm
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The following posts relating to the "Susan" 2:17 edit had appeared earlier on another thread:
------------------------------------------------------ Hykker Posted: 07 August 2008 at 5:23am Quote Hykker Fetta wrote: While we are on the subject of Dick Bartley, I just wanted to address something. First off, I think that Dick Bartley has done an amazing job with all of CDs and he has brought to us many hard to find 45 versions. And it is my understanding that he is a "stickler" at finding these versions. But if that is the case, why are several of the tracks on his CDs, in fact, not the correct 45 versions. (i.e. "Woodstock", "Chapel of Love") I hope this doesn't soound like a knock against Dick Bartley CD's. Like I said, I think they are great....but was just wondering why he would include these tracks on the CDs. If it's the Matthew's Southern Comfort "Woodstock" you're referring to, he used the promo single edit of the song with the shortened intro and early fade. Several of the "promo edits" he's used are pretty good stereo re-creations, but aren't exact. A couple that come to mind are "Susan" by the Buckinghams and "Are You Ready"-Pacific Gas & Electric. That having been said, it's nice that someone has taken the time & effort to issue these, especially since the appeal is likely to be limited to collectors. Too bad they go out of print so fast. ------------------------------------------------------- Pat Downey Admin Group Posted: 07 August 2008 at 5:33pm Quote Pat Downey What differences from the dj edit did you find in "Susan" and "Are You Ready" on the Dick Bartley cd's? -------------------------------------------------------- Hykker Posted: 07 August 2008 at 6:14pm | IP Logged Quote Hykker Pat Downey wrote: What differences from the dj edit did you find in "Susan" and "Are You Ready" on the Dick Bartley cd's? I'd have to go back & check "Are You Ready", but the edit in "Susan" was noticeably loose. Hard to describe, but edit point is ~1/2 second late. Nit-picky perhaps, but quite noticeable if you're familiar with the promo single. ------------------------------------------------------- Bill Cahill Posted: 08 August 2008 at 5:27pm Quote Bill Cahill On the Dick Bartley CDs: The "Susan" edit was an edit from the multitrack remixes done for the Legacy CDs, it has that doubling effect near the end that was only on the remix. Mathews' Southern Comfort was an incorrectly edited for the intro. (It should be a late start, not an edit) I thought Dick told me that the Pacific Gas and Electric came from a very clean DJ 45 as they didn't have the tape so I think that one is correct. Dick was trying hard to put out rare stereo or different versions you couldn't find elsewhere, hence some of the stranger versions. ------------------------------------------------------- jimct Posted: 16 August 2008 at 1:09pm Quote jimct Pat Downey wrote: What differences from the dj edit did you find in "Susan" on the Dick Bartley cd's? Pat, to me the most noticable difference between the DJ edit and the Bartley CD is that at the exact moment of the edit, which removed the "psychedelia", there is what sounds to me to be a drumstick loudly banging a piece of aluminum foil, as a transitional element, which is unique to the 45. As has been indicated earlier, Bartley simply edited the stereo CD version, which is close, but does not include this unique musical element. ------------------------------------------------------- Yah Shure Posted: 17 August 2008 at 8:14pm Quote Yah Shure I just did an A/B comparison between the long (2:48) and edited (2:17) sides of the mono "Susan" DJ 45, and there is a discernable difference in the mixes between the two. It is especially noticeable in the run-up just before the stopping point for the psychedelia. The drumming is crisp and prominent on the (2:48) side, but is quite buried in the mix on the (2:17) side. There is more of a "wall of sound" feel to the (2:17) mix; it's harder to pick out the drumming and the bass. Because of the mix differences, editing the (2:48) side does not produce the same result as the (2:17) edit. The drum beat at the "love-love-love-love" edit point is quieter and wetter on the (2:17) edit, giving it that "aluminum foil" sound that Jim mentioned. The same drum beat on the (2:48) side sounds more like a normal drum beat. The (2:48) side of the DJ 45 uses the same mix as the commercial 45. And even the edit on the vinyl (2:17) DJ 45 is a tad late. Tightening it up to match the beat produces a less-jarring edit. ------------------------------------------------------ |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 9:15pm
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Awesome scan as usual, Yah Shure!
One name on the label stands out - James William Guercio...didn't he later work with Chicago, or did he work for Columbia? |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 5:46am
Well, there must have been at least 4 versions of the promo 45. I have 2 promos of this: one that's just a white-label version of the stock copy with the 2:48 verson on one side & "Foreign Policy" on the other/ The other has the 2:17 on one side and the 2:48 on the other. Then there's your 2:48/2:48 copy and Yah Shure's 2:17/2:17 "rush reservice" version. BTW, my 2:17 version is quite clean if you'd like a dub. |
eriejwg wrote:Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 9:34am
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I would love to hear the 2:17 promo version! ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 10:26am
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John: Yes and yes. Guercio was initially a Columbia staff producer, then managed and produced Chicago. Caribou Ranch was his Colorado studio.
Steve: My reservice copy is 2:17/2:48. Based on your added info, we now know that that configuration appears both with and without the reservice designation. Music directors must have been wondering what the heck was going on, just as with Chicago's "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is" multiple promo 45s a couple years later... and therein lies another James William Guercio connection! |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 6:37pm
Looks like we're down to 3 configurations of promo copies. I double-checked my 2:17/2:48 and it too is the reservice designation. |
Posted By: Gary Mack
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 8:01pm
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The short edit promo was made at the request of MOR and some Top 40 stations. They told Columbia that the freaky psychedelic part prevented them from playing the record at all.
Our Top 40 station, KRIZ/Phoenix, played the full single but MOR station KOY, as best I can struggle to remember, added the edit version to its playlist. Sure wish I had kept the KRIZ promo copy..... Gary |
Posted By: BillCahill
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 4:25am
| I have a red label Columbia Hall Of Fame reissue with a label time of 2:48.. but it edits out the "train wreck", I believe it's the same as the DJ 45 but I don't have one to a/b it. I will time it anyway when I get a chance to see if it matches the DJ 45 length for sure. Probably easier to find than a DJ copy. |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 5:47am
"Susan" seems a bit rock-ish for an MOR station of that era. I started my first p/t radio gig right around the time "Susan" was a hit. We played the long version as well, though I'm not sure the PD knew there was an edit. For some reason, he tended to avoid double-A side singles, I guess he considered every song a potential 2-sided hit, so if we got singles both ways he'd put the double-A in the giveaway bin. Other than this station, I don't recall hearing the full version anywhere else...they either played the 2:17 edit or a custom edit. Does anyone know the story behind the psychedelic bridge in this song? I read somewhere once that it was added without the band's knowledge in an attempt to make the song sound more trendy. If true, I'm wondering how the song would have sounded. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 7:40am
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Based on Yah Shure's synopsis, it sounds like an inferior mix of "Susan" was used for the DJ 45 edit, which is too bad because it would've been nice if Columbia had opted to edit out the psychedelic passage on the punchier commercial 45 mix and instead serviced that to radio. Fortunately, we now have the ability and technology to create our own homemade 45 edits to cater to our preferences. But unfortunately in the case with "Susan", editing the stereo mix on CD doesn't quite produce the same result as the DJ 45.
Has a mono mix of "Susan" ever turned up on an import CD? |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 8:39am
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To best simulate the "sound" of the DJ 45 edit, fold down the original J.W. Guercio stereo mix found on "The Buckinghams Greatest Hits" CD. When the Vic Anesini remix is used to make the edit, it doesn't sound like the DJ 45.
Andy |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 9:50am
I can see your point. But how do you explain perhaps the biggest MOR eyebrow-raiser, whose highest Billboard placing (#6 !!) occurred on the Easy Listening/MOR chart: Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues"? Yet The Beatles' "Yesterday" didn't make that same chart in the same year. It obviously took E-Z/MOR radio a lot longer to cotton to those Moptops from Liverpool than to that folksinger from the Iron Range. I heard both versions of "Susan" on the local rockers. Steve was kind enough to send me his clean dub, and I was surprised to find that the strings interlude on the edit stills sounds more shrill than on the (2:48) side (I'd initially chalked that up to a worn stylus from the original owner of my copy.) The remix on the edit sounded fine on AM radio in its day, but not so much on anything since then. Andrew's suggestion of editing the Guercio mix from CD is perhaps the best compromise between sonic clarity and historical accuracy. Bill, your description of the psychedelic part being a "train wreck" has given me an idea. If we were to take the psychedelic part from "Susan", the clock/baby/bullfight sound effects from "My World Fell Down", and the crash sequences from "Leader Of The Pack" and "Leader Of The Laundromat" and mix them all together, we'd have a "one-trainwreck-fits-all" collage that could be spliced into all four songs. Or not. :) |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 10:12am
I love the idea. :) As an aside, any post that mentions "My World Fell Down" is all right with me. What a great record. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 10:27am
I was going to add the final crescendo from "A Day In The Life", but that would have been just a little too over-the-top. ;) Gary Usher's words in Sundazed's liner notes from the Sagittarius Present Tense CD were along the line of Clive Davis thinking that Gary had gone bananas with the psychedelia in the middle of the "My World Fell Down" and "Hotel Indiscreet" 45s, and gave him all kinds of trouble about it. When the Present Tense LP finally came out in July 1968 - nearly a year after the "MWFD" 45 - the label insisted that he eliminate the sound effects. Consequently, I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility that Clive Davis could also have been involved in the decison to issue the "Susan" DJ edit. |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 10:58am
Something else I noticed while dubbing the song for John & Andrew is that it is VERY compressed, almost to the extent of a 21st century recording. I'm sure that contributes considerably to the sonic differences. |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 11:01am
I can't explain it. I remember noticing that when I first got Whitburn's easy listening book. It almost had to have been some sort of chart fluke. |
Posted By: TallPaulInKy
Date Posted: 21 September 2015 at 6:25am
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I know this is an old thread, but let me offer another
possibility not mentioned here. According to an interview with some of the band members I read, The original version of Susan was recorded and the group thought they had a hit. They went out on the road, and while touring heard the song on the radio and realized the producer had inserted the train wreck (psychedelic) portion to make it sound more hip. So maybe the 2:17 is not a DJ edit as most fans assume. Maybe it is the original (non hit version) single before the insert.... |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 11 September 2016 at 8:51pm
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Pat, just FYI for the database. You currently show the
"Rock Artifacts" CD as having the "LP Mix" but to my disappointment it has the same remix that is on the "Mercy Mercy Mercy" CD with the double tracked vocal at the end. So I thought just maybe since their "Portraits" album is available for download, I could get the original mix there. Nope, the digital-revisionists at Sony replaced the song with the remixed version. Sigh. MM |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 09 October 2016 at 6:54pm
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Ok in a quest to re-create the DJ 45 version as closely
as possible, I analyzed the various mixes. Here's what I found. 1) The mono stock 45 is a dedicated mix. There's not really any one thing that stands out, but one small detail is in all the stereo mixes, the strings at the music break come in before the downbeat, but in the mono mix the strings start right at the downbeat. 2) The promo DJ edit is simply a quickly made, poorly mastered edit of the stock mono mix. It sounds so different because they made a low quality copy of the mono, made the quick edit, and then added a ton more compression (as mentioned earlier, much like modern brick-walling). That's why the edit point sounds different, the high compression maximizes all the reverb. So, I guess the words "rush re-service" on the label were quite literal, they rushed. 3) The closest thing to the mono mix in stereo is the original stereo LP mix. This mix appears on only TWO CD's.. the original Columbia "Best Of" (faded too early) and the Varese Dick Bartley "On The Radio" CD as the DJ edit attempt. And since the Best-of master fades about 5 seconds sooner than the original album did, the edit re-creation fades too early as well. Too bad they didn't notice that and request a new analog transfer. NOTE: currently the DB comment on the above Cd reads "(this is an edit of the "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" CD version in an unsuccessful attempt at recreating the dj 45 edit and mix)" But it should read: "(edit of the LP version in an unsuccessful attempt at recreating the DJ edit and mix)" As for the edit point, the Bartley CD got it closer than Varese's later attempt, but it comes in too late. One can remove a snippet of audio just before the drum beat and that will make it match. 4) Then there's the 2016 Varese Cd "The Complete Hit Singles". Currently the DB states "(this is the DJ edit)" but alas it is also a failed attempt. This CD uses the "Mercy Mercy Mercy" CD remix. And this time instead of making the splice too late, they made it much too early. Yes it runs the correct length but that's because the only version available in digital form that is long enough is the remix. So the correct description for this entry is the one currently on the earlier Varese CD. Bottom line: to create the true DJ edit, you'll need to edit a dub of the stock 45. To create the best stereo facsimile of the DJ edit, you'll need to edit a dub of the original vinyl LP or Best-of LP. On CD, the closest thing to it is on Varese's "On The Radio, Vol 2." Hope this helps, and is not too confusing. MM |
Posted By: TallPaulInKy
Date Posted: 29 August 2020 at 9:01am
Actually according to interviews with the members of the band the 2:17 was probably the original version. The the producer inserted the so called "psychedelic" portion which was actually an excerpt of another piece in the Columbia classical catalog..without the bands knowledge. It's been a while, but seems to me it was an ""Leonard Bernstein excerpt conducting Charles Ives' composition, "Central Park in the Dark." That's why a proper edit cannot be made from the released hit single. |
Posted By: LunarLaugh
Date Posted: 29 August 2020 at 5:33pm
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Does anyone else notice that the strings on the mono 45
version are perfectly in sync with the track? Yet on the original stereo mix and the stereo remix, they fall out of sync with the rest of the track? My theory is the string parts might have been tracked to a second multitrack and then manually sync'd to the original multi-track during mixing (The Beatles and other artists used this practice a handful of times back in the day to avoid losing a tape generation of sound quality... very tricky to pull off and often made mixing very time consuming). By the time they got the mono mixdown just right, they had to start over again with the stereo mix and the string parts were just slightly off the mark. If I had to guess, I would say that the remix was made with only the original stereo mix as a reference so the strings sounded right to them. It's one of those things that once you hear it, you can't un-hear it. ------------- https://thelunarlaugh.bandcamp.com/ - Listen to The Lunar Laugh! |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 30 August 2020 at 12:11am
Ok.... Paul, I can tell with 100% certainty that whatever the band member might have said or think they recall, this is NOT the case. The DJ edit can be 100% properly made from the original hit mono 45 mix. As indicated in my post above that is the only way to re- create the accurate DJ edit - and I have done so, perfectly. SO ... let's really think this this thru. The song was recorded with that abrupt "transition" from the chorus to the end part...a very abrupt transition ...and ran 2:17? ...and then LATER they decide to add the montage part to it to what?? Make it ..what?? LESS appealing to AM radio? I'm sorry but, NO. The DJ edit was edited from the commercial 45 as a rush-re-service for AM radio to REMOVE the montage and make it more commercial for radio. This has been documented in more than one place many times over. The montage was part of the original commercial single and then edited as a rush re-service to radio. There is NO way they "added" that montage after the fact to make a longer commercial single. For starters, how did they find a perfect "montage" that would match the 2nd half of that horribly abrupt edit, so it sounded natural? Well you know the answer...impossible. The DJ edit is an edit of the commercial 45, period. MM |
Posted By: LunarLaugh
Date Posted: 30 August 2020 at 1:00am
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The "Central Park in the Dark" section was producer James
William Guercio's brainchild from the get-go. He wanted that "A Day In The Life" vibe. It was very much a product of the times. When the band tracked the song, there was nothing but silence connecting the two surrounding sections which Guercio then filled in without the band's involvement. If you listen to it, you can actually hear Guercio himself saying the name 'Susan' played backwards 2 or 3 times during that section. ------------- https://thelunarlaugh.bandcamp.com/ - Listen to The Lunar Laugh! |