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Jackson 5 - I Want You Back question

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Topic: Jackson 5 - I Want You Back question

Posted By: aaronk
Subject: Jackson 5 - I Want You Back question
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 12:47am

The database notes "45 version" for "I Want You Back" for only two CDs, which both have the song in mono. All "LP versions" are stereo. Given that the run times are the same for the 45 and LP, can I assume there are other differences (besides mono) between them?

In other words, by folding the stereo "LP version" to mono, that would not give me the mono "45 version." Correct?

Replies:

Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 2:22am

Assume there are other differences, Aaron. Motown founder Berry Gordy spent 99% of company time and money preparing the mono 45 mixes. Once done, for stereo, he tossed the tapes to a junior engineer, and then told them "you got 15 minutes to make a stereo master!" They've gone back, in some cases, more recently, and tried to build new stereo masters, with more TLC, but I would trust Pat's ears here.

Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 5:58am

The bass comes in at a different point during the breakdown and at certain points the bass seems to be completely removed from the 45.

Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 8:12am

Thanks, Pat. I'm just starting to explore the differences in versions for the pre-80s hits (as I've pretty much exhausted that decade and everything after). I figured it was your policy to label "version" differences only if it's more than just a mono/stereo difference.

In general, if I see (S) next to some and (M) next to some, both with NO comments, is is safe to assume that a stereo fold-down would give you the mono version? Or is this not necessarily true?

Posted By: Jeff H.
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 3:35pm

aaronk wrote:

In general, if I see (S) next to some and (M) next to some, both with NO comments, is is safe to assume that a stereo fold-down would give you the mono version? Or is this not necessarily true?

No that's definitely not true. All of the early Jackson 5 singles up to "Sugar Daddy" are dedicated mono mixes. Folding down the stereo versions will not give you the same mix.

Knowing "I Want You Back" as well as I do, I know that isn't so. The drums and percussion are a lot more prominent on the 45 and of course right in the center. On the stereo mix they're panned more to left channel along with the bass. One other thing is that the 45 version has an edit right before the vocal comes back in. On the stereo mix there are three bass notes that are repeated twice with no vocal under them. The 45 mix has that part edited out. The LP version has a slightly earlier fade than the 45 mix. On the mono mix you can hear Michael sing "I Want You Back!!" "Owwww!!!" one more time right as it fades away completely. You can only hear that on the original vinyl single. On the Hitsville USA CD it fades in the exact same place as the LP stereo mix.

Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 4:09pm

Jeff H. wrote:

No that's definitely not true. All of the early Jackson 5 singles up to "Sugar Daddy" are dedicated mono mixes. Folding down the stereo versions will not give you the same mix.

This is good info, Jeff. So, how do I know from the database whether I have the 45 version or the LP version if there are no comments, other than an (M) and (S) indication before the listing?

Here's an example, since I just picked up Hitsville USA at my local used CD store...

Stevie Wonder's "Signed Sealed Delivered I'm Yours" is in mono on the box set. Without question, this mono mix is different than the stereo version I'm used to hearing...aside from the fact that it's mono. I actually folded down the stereo mix to compare the two, and here's what I found:

1) The percussion is much louder on the mono mix.
2) The horns are buried on the mono mix.
3) It runs several seconds longer.

Now, if we were comparing stereo to stereo, and those differences were present, that would be enough to warrent a "version" comment. However, the database doesn't indicate any difference between "45 version" and "LP version."

Does this mean that both a stereo and mono 45 were issued, so essentially both mixes are the 45 version?

Forgive my ignorance, but I was born after they had stopped using mono, and I don't own any of these 45s to check.

Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 4:49pm

and....the mono mix (of "I Want You Back") omits the first handclaps at :01 that the stereo has

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dc1

Posted By: Jeff H.
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 5:15pm

aaronk wrote:

Jeff H. wrote:

No that's definitely not true. All of the early Jackson 5 singles up to "Sugar Daddy" are dedicated mono mixes. Folding down the stereo versions will not give you the same mix.

All of those things you noticed about the Stevie Wonder 45 are correct. Motown mixed all of their singles specifically for mono until the end of 1971. The one exception I'm aware of was The Temptations "Papa Was A Rolling Stone", which I believe was a fold down of the stereo mix.

Really the only way you can tell which mix is which is to listen to them Aaron. The Hitsville box is main place you'll find the mono mixes. Other than a couple other compilations like some of the Ultimate Collection CD's, Motown has used primarily stereo mixes of their hits.

Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 6:07pm

The 45 mix of "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" has a conga drum mixed low that the album version does not have.

Andy

Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 9:12pm

aaronk wrote:

In other words, by folding the stereo "LP version" to mono, that would not give me the mono "45 version." Correct?

No. It is a dedicated mix, with the bass part coming in at a different time. On the mono single mix, the drumsa are louder, and has other subtle differences.

If you want the single version, you have to actually get it.

Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 9:15pm

Jeff H. wrote:

I concur with everything Jeff says, as I am also intimately familiar with this sond
g, having been a Jackson 5 fan singe they released "Big Boy" on Steeltown.

The only single that you could probably get away with i=using the stereo mix is "The Love You Save". As hard as I try, there is NO other difference between the mono and stereo other than a few seconds more on the mono.

But, generally, for Motown, you can be sure that if you have the stereo mix, you do NOT have the single. Period.

Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 11:27pm

Grant wrote:

But, generally, for Motown, you can be sure that if you have the stereo mix, you do NOT have the single. Period.

Grant, thanks for your background and info on this subject. How often do you find these differences OTHER than on early Motown records? Are there several other mono singles I need to collect to have the true 45 versions, or are most mono tracks from other labels simply fold-downs?

Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 12:01am

To aaronk:

Many, if not most, mono singles are not actually fold-downs from the stereo mix. However, the mixing differences are generally not as blatant as those pre-'71 Motown singles.

Andy

Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 12:48am

aaronk wrote:

Grant wrote:

But, generally, for Motown, you can be sure that if you have the stereo mix, you do NOT have the single. Period.

Several??? Let's put it this way: You have a LOT of collecting and hunting to do! I hope you have a turntable and lots of shelf space for CDs! Imagine a world where almost every single song on the chart was custom mixed to mono. The album stereo versions were either afterthought mixed differently, or different recordings. That's the way it was until the early 70s.

Happy hunting!

Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 1:21am

Grant wrote:

Several??? Let's put it this way: You have a LOT of collecting and hunting to do!

Oh, man... Well, in your opinion, is it worth trying to hunt down these mono mixes, or do most people prefer the stereo versions?

Here's another example: Jaggerz "The Rapper." The only version I know (and have in my collection) is the stereo version. Should I spend my time and money trying to get the mono mix? (In this particular example, I noticed that the database indicates "LP" and "45" even though the run times are the same.) Anyone know the difference on this one?

Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 3:54am

I have a version of The Jaggerz "The Rapper" in mono (on Pair's Best Of Bubblegum Music) that features reverb on the vocals at 1:47 and 1:56 of the song and has the "thank you, thank you very much" mixed more up front at the end of the song. I'd discussed this on another board some time ago, and the feeling then if I remember correctly was that it was just an alternate mono mix and not the 45. Are all mono versions as described above Pat? Maybe a promo? Anyone have a 45 of this that can verify?

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dc1

Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 6:13am

Regarding "The Rapper" (which should be a separate thread), yes those are the differences David that in my opinion qualify for the 45 and LP version designation.

Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 6:36am

I remember my mono commercial 45 having an awful and annoying "caw-caw-caw" sound in the middle of it - Pat's current deisgnation is ENTIRELY correct.

Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 8:37am

Thanks guys... I'm going to start hunting for these mono mixes (at least the ones designated "45 version").

Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 31 May 2006 at 8:46am

Oh, man... Well, in your opinion, is it worth trying to hunt down these mono mixes, or do most people prefer the stereo versions?

[/QUOTE]

It depends if you want the correct hit single mixes or not.

Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 12:25pm

Well, anyone can make their job a lot easier with the Motown stuff by purchasing the Hitsville Vol. 1 boxed set.

Also, every Motown single is being reissued in its mono version, both A and B side, on Hip-O Select's complete Motown series. They're expensive -- about $150 per set, each one covering one year. Four volumes have been issued so far. But they only issue two or three sets a year, and you will have a very collectable, limited edition which is likely to go up in value.

Alternatively, I believe at least the first two volumes of that series are available for download -- by track -- on iTunes.

But Grant is right that almost every pre-1969 single was released in mono only, and most of them were not fold-downs. That's been my maddening goal -- to collect the single MIXES. Fortunately I don't collect the entire top 40, just the top 10, so my chore is a little bit easier.

Course, we won't talk about how much money I've blown on imports and promo samplers just on the chance that they MIGHT have some rare mono. But then you'll discover that gem that makes it all worth it.

Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 01 June 2006 at 4:03pm

Brian W. wrote:

But Grant is right that almost every pre-1969 single was released in mono only,

1972. Your job just got harder! :)

Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 13 July 2007 at 7:50pm

My commercial 45, which is mono, has a listed time of (2:44), but an actual time of (2:58).

Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:38pm

Pat, thanks for correcting the "I Want To Take You Higher" actual timings. All that's left for you to do now is to include the "listed (2:44), actual (2:58)" notation I specified just above, for "I Want You Back". Thank you as always, sir.