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torcan
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| Posted: 12 December 2020 at 10:08pm | IP Logged
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I realize this may be a bit off-topic, but I wanted to
get some opinions.
Over the decades, Billboard's had differing policies
on how long songs and albums can stay on the charts
(sometimes dropping them off after they reach certain
criteria) and about songs re-entering the charts.
In the '60s, Christmas singles came and went every
year, but for a long time they were relegated to
Christmas-only charts and rarely appeared on the Hot
100. In recent years, Billboard's allowed them to re-
chart each year. For the album chart, for a long time
beginning in the '90s, albums over two years old were
automatically taken off even if they were still
selling, although they've reversed this policy in
recent years.
Personally, I think everything should be ranked based
on sales and airplay data accordingly and not
artificially dropped off. Chart data from the past
has been compromised because of this (especially on
the album chart).
I loved seeing Mariah hit No. 1 last year with a 25-
year-old song (and she seems poised to do it again
this year), but how do you feel about decades old
Christmas songs like "Jingle Bell Rock" and "Rockin'
Around the Christmas Tree" being listed in the top
positions on the Hot 100, relegating current releases
in lower positions? Is this a good thing, or because
of the seasonal stature should they be held off the
Hot 100?
Any thoughts?
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PopArchivist
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| Posted: 12 December 2020 at 10:35pm | IP Logged
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Personally I think the mind set of the charts in the 1955-1998 period was very limited in respect to Christmas hits.
I think the whole LP mentality was what was controlling back then. The 45's were for charting singles, while the christmas songs came full thrust for about 5 weeks out of the year. Back in the 50's and 60's artists like Sinatra and Bennett would make entire albums for Christmas, they were not geared toward singles. I don't recall any huge christmas hit charting on the Top 40 of the Hot 100, which was a great oversight.
White Christmas charted before the Hot 100. It charted for years after but it never hit the top 10. I couldn't begin to name the hundreds of songs that are classics now that were relegated to Non Hot 100 status. Many of the 60's and 70's classics would have easily been top 10 hits, as evidenced by today's chart positions and airplay.
In late 1984 Band Aid was two positions short if I recall of actually hitting the top 10. That was a rarity for those times. In 1989 This One's For the Children by NKOTB hit top 10 and was listed as a christmas song (even though it had nothing to do with it).
Most of the 90's saw Christmas music, but no Hot 100 singles to match even though many of those classics were bonafide huge airplay hits on radio (Chanukah Song by Adam Sandler etc).
Hell, Mariah would have had #1 a long time ago with her Christmas hit instead of waiting 25 years for it to chart. The decades old christmas songs being able to chart year after year do manage to clog up the rankings, but it makes up for all the years that those hits were kept off unfairly.
If you really look, it wasn't until Billboard revised their policy I think in 2013 that songs like Mariah's have been able to thrive by charting each 5-7 week period around Christmas. With youtube, streaming and downloads available the charts are now more reflective of what is popular.
So no, I would not hold off the christmas hits. I would however disagree with the way Whitburn holds their peak in the year before for the charts. Other than that, they are here to stay as they should be...
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"I'm a pop archivist, not a chart philosopher, I seek to listen, observe and document the chart position of music."
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 13 December 2020 at 2:57am | IP Logged
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The charts are Billboard's and they can do what they like. However, I would point out that they still have some arbitrary
rules. Those Christmas songs can only come back if they will chart at #50 or higher (this goes for all "old" songs re-
entering). Songs are also automatically removed from the Hot 100 if they drop below #50 and have more than 20 weeks charted.
So, you're still not getting a "totally accurate" listing of the top 100 songs each week. But again, their charts, their rules.
Edited by Paul Haney on 13 December 2020 at 2:58am
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 13 December 2020 at 5:45am | IP Logged
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I don't see anything wrong with the Christmas songs re-entering every year. If they have enough total points to chart, why shouldn't they? You have to figure that they're only going to be on the chart for maybe 5-6 weeks out of the year, and that's definitely no worse than current songs being on the chart 30, 40, 50 or more weeks a year. And it's not like those songs won't go back up to higher chart positions once the Christmas songs drop off.
I'm personally not a fan at all of songs being removed from the chart just because they reach a certain amount of weeks charted. It's nice that they want to give new songs a chance to chart, but you really can't talk about accuracy if you're removing songs that could still be charting just because they reach a certain amount of weeks and fall below a certain chart position. I remember when Billboard first started using Soundscan, songs were taken off the chart after they fell below the Top 20 and had reached 20 weeks charted. I think a few months later they revised it to falling below the Top 40 after 20 weeks, and then eventually the rule that's still in place today, falling below the Top 50 after 20 weeks. So I guess we should be thankful the original 20/20 rule still isn't being used.
I would also agree with PopArchivist about Christmas songs that peak in January being counted as peaking in December of the previous year. That would seem inaccurate if you're wanting to go by specific dates of when a song reached its peak. I understand there might be cases like in 2019 where "All I Want For Christmas Is You" peaked at #3 in January, dropped off completely and then came back and peaked at #1 in December. Then you'd have to give it two separate rankings in the Pop Annual for 2019, but it would still be accurate.
The NKOTB song that was mentioned has always been a head scratcher for me. I know it's been discussed in another thread, but there's really nothing in the lyrics to indicate they're talking about the Holidays. Obviously the song is on their Christmas album, but that doesn't really seem like enough to qualify it as a Christmas song when there's no mention of it in the actual song itself. It's listed as peaking in December 1989 when it actually peaked at #7 the first week in January 1990. By contrast, Dan Fogelberg's "Same Old Lang Syne" does mention the word "Christmas" and has had some Airplay on my local Oldies station when they play Christmas music, but isn't listed in the Whitburn publications as a Christmas song. Also, the Annie Lennox & Al Green version of "Put A Little Love In Your Heart" gets played yearly at Christmas time on the Music System at my job and was on the Soundtrack to a Christmas movie ("Scrooged") but is also not listed in the Whitburn books as a Christmas song. So I guess what I'm saying is that labeling a song as a "Christmas Song" can be up for interpretation.
But getting back to the thread topic, I say let the Christmas songs chart on the Hot 100 if they have enough points to do so. If Billboard's goal is to be as accurate as possible, and the songs are meeting their qualifications to make the chart, why not?
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 13 December 2020 at 4:34pm | IP Logged
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I'm all for Christmas songs charting each year. But in a way it's a double edged sword. For that 5-7 week period, what if a song peaks at 16 but would have peaked at 7 if it weren't for the XMas songs, and by the time the 5-7 weeks is over, the song has already lost steam and is down on the chart, never to get to its "top 10 status". I do realize Christmas songs were played and popular during that time, but still a lot of songs get denied a much higher peak because of all the XMas songs that for a short period are dominating the charts, even in the top 20. So I kind of have mixed feelings about current songs that get the short end of the stick. I wish I knew the solution :)
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RoknRobnLoxley
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| Posted: 14 December 2020 at 6:31am | IP Logged
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The charts are manipulated because that's what the industry wants. They want newer songs in the charts quicker, rotate the older records out, because obviously they make more $ (or think they do). Follow the money, end of story.
The solution is this: you have one master chart without any manipulation rules, to show all truth. Then you have sub-charts, one chart that is adjusted for/that leans towards newer songs, one for Christmas songs, other charts for other specialties. That way more total records get more total exposure across multiple specialty charts.
I've always wanted to see multiple charts broken down by artist age, say by decade. Then you'd have even more publicity generated for them and their music. Separate charts for artists in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. Everyone wins, artists get exposure, fans continue to hear about their long time fave artists thru various media, more records are sold, record companies make more $. Seems obvious to me...
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 14 December 2020 at 7:03am | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
| For that 5-7 week period, what if a song peaks at 16 but would have peaked at 7 if it weren't for the XMas songs, and by the time the 5-7 weeks is over, the song has already lost steam and is down on the chart, never to get to its "top 10 status". |
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That's a good point, but considering that hit songs now regularly average 20, 30 or many more weeks on the chart (especially in the Top 10), many of those songs will likely move back up the charts once the Christmas songs drop off and may actually obtain higher positions than they had before the Christmas songs re-entered. I think songs now have a better chance of doing that as opposed to the charts of the past where a #1 song might average 6-7 weeks in the Top 10 and less than 20 weeks on the chart.
Edited by thecdguy on 14 December 2020 at 7:05am
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 14 December 2020 at 12:22pm | IP Logged
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Just looked at Billboard. Mariah is back at #1. Her song
joins "White Christmas" and "The Twist" as the only songs
to be #1 more than once.
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 04 December 2023 at 6:29pm | IP Logged
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Brenda Lee is the early chart topper for Dec. 2023 with "Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree." She is now the oldest person to ever have a number one on the Hot 100.
Brenda turns 79 years young next week. Her last number one was in 1960. This means it's a 63-year spread between chart topping hits for Brenda on the Hot 100.
2023 may be a new high point for "dinosaur rock" acts on the Billboard charts with Brenda, Cher, Dolly Parton, the Rolling Stones and the Beatles all charting on one or more of Billboard's many music charts.
In case you missed it, Cher recently topped the Dance/Electronic Digital Song Sales chart with "DJ Play A Christmas Song." Dolly topped the Top Album Sales chart with "Rockstar."
Edited by Santi Paradoa on 05 December 2023 at 7:44am
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 12 December 2023 at 5:36pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
Cher recently topped the Dance/Electronic Digital
Song Sales chart with "DJ Play A Christmas Song." |
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The Cher song is also currently topping the Adult
Contemporary chart as well.
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 12 December 2023 at 6:16pm | IP Logged
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Brenda Lee is now at number one on the Hot 100 for a second week. Go Brenda!
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Hykker
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| Posted: 13 December 2023 at 5:29am | IP Logged
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I guess I'm the outlier here (big surprise), because I think this re-charting of Christmas oldies every year does nothing but distort the charts
even more than they already are. I could see a current Christmas song charting in the year it was released, but beyond that I'd just limit
them to a Christmas chart. Seeing a 65 year old seasonal song at #1 makes no sense to me.
RoknRobnLoxley wrote:
I've always wanted to see multiple charts broken down by artist age, say by decade. Then you'd have even more publicity
generated for them and their music. Separate charts for artists in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. Everyone wins, artists get exposure, fans
continue to hear about their long time fave artists thru various media, more records are sold, record companies make more $. Seems obvious to
me... |
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Well, that makes one of us. Not really sure what you're getting at here. Why should the age of an artist determine what chart their song appears
on?
I'll be the first to admit that I have no better idea on how to construct a chart in the 3rd decade of the 21st century, but when you see artists
like Bad Bunny or a zillion rappers all called Lil' somebodyorother who get little or no airplay with dozens of chart hits something's wrong.
Maybe I'm just getting old, but I miss the days when the Hot 100 was actually reflective of what you might hear on the radio.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 13 December 2023 at 11:08am | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
when you see artists like Bad Bunny or a zillion rappers
all called Lil' somebodyorother who get little or no airplay with dozens
of chart hits something's wrong.
Maybe I'm just getting old, but I miss the days when the Hot 100 was
actually reflective of what you might hear on the radio. |
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I feel like streaming has kind of replaced airplay. And rightfully so,
in my opinion. I've always felt that what you hear on the radio has
nothing to do with whether you wanted to hear it or not. I personally
pay more attention to the streaming chart than I do to the Hot 100 these
days.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 14 December 2023 at 12:24pm | IP Logged
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Here's the daily chart for Spotify
https://kworb.net/spotify/country/us_daily.html
There are also numerous other charts at that link to check
out.
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Scanner
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| Posted: 17 December 2023 at 10:32am | IP Logged
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With Brenda Lee also "rockin'" atop the Country Digital
Songs and Country Streaming charts, why is she also not
rockin' at the top of Hot Country Songs? Recurrents can
re-chart there - Jimmy Buffett recently returned at #14
with "Margaritaville" shortly after he passed away. (The
song fell one notch short of its original #13 peak in
1977.) If her song is #1 across all genres, you would
think that would be enough to place her back on Country as
well.
Billboard's country chart rules can be somewhat suspect.
After Olivia Newton-John passed away, five of her songs
ranked on Country Digital Songs. These five as well as
seven others charted on the overall Digital Songs Sales
chart. Among the missing on the Country chart was "Let Me
Be There" which went Top 10 Country on all four national
singles charts (Billboard, Cashbox, R&R, Record World) and
earned Olivia a Grammy for Best Country Vocal Performance
- Female. Yet, "Let" was not included on the Country
Digital Songs chart even though it ranked higher on the
Digital Songs chart than "Please Mr. Please" that did
chart Country that week! Conversely, some of Buffett's
songs such as "Volcano" which never charted Country were
considered Country after he passed and appeared on Country
Digital Songs.
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Topic: OT - Christmas songs re-entering
