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sriv94
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| Posted: 03 February 2016 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
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OK, another track that's confusing to me.
Obviously this song was a 12" single listed at (7:38), and the version available on The Sugar Hill Records Story jibes with that run time. There
are promo 7" versions that are listed at (4:05), which are not available on CD or on iTunes. Rhino had a version in its Rhino Hi-Five series that
runs (4:32) (which I have); the song also appears on the Anchorman 2 OST with a run time of (4:28). I'm assuming those two are the same version
with less runout time on the soundtrack version.
So the question is: what is the (4:32) version? Is it an edit of the 12" single that's different from the short promo version? Is it perhaps a single
version from the UK or other country? Is it in fact the short version (and the listed time is wrong)? Since it never charted in the US on the Hot 100
(presumably because a stock 7" to my knowledge wasn't issued), none of the databases have it. (And to add to the confusion, the video version only runs
about (3:25).)
Um, help?
Signed,
Really Confused in Chicago
Edited by sriv94 on 03 February 2016 at 10:18pm
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jimct
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| Posted: 04 February 2016 at 7:43pm | IP Logged
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After my initial investigative efforts, I wish I could say, "So glad you
brought this one up, Doug!" But so far, even after some of my 1983 vinyl
has been pulled/played, the pink stuff (Pepto Bismol) has also just been
pulled by yours truly, as my research road to date has proven to be full of
stressful potholes.....
First off, it appears that in 1983, Sugar Hill simply sent our station a
commercial 12" single copy (Sugar Hill 465), but placed it inside a grey,
"Promotional Copy - Not For Sale" cardboard sleeve. Although "White
Lines" did "Bubble Under" BB at #101, and had an unusually long 10-week
run, this was 99.9% due to massive 12" sales and club play. Personally, I
never heard the song on the radio anywhere, as a current. The folks at
Sugar Hill were realists, however, and had been down this very same road
before. So while they did service many stations with copies of some
shape/form, they knew there was little or no chance for actual airplay. As
such, it appears they didn't bother to press up a costly "grooved for radio
airplay" promo 12-inch single.
The "B" side of my 12" single lists two tracks: 1) Bonus Break (listed 2:34)
and 2) Short Version (listed 4:10). The first problem is that the music on
the "B" side is continuous, from start to finish, making it impossible to
discern exactly *when* the short version officially starts. So I cued it up,
using my most logical guess, to a cold vocal intro. Luckily, my broadcast
turntable is an "instant start at full speed" model. The actual time I just
got was (4:17). I really didn't hear a later possible starting opportunity for
the track. Doug, I just shot a dub of this out to you. But be aware that my
starting point was subjective, based on nothing but my personal gut
sense. That's all anyone else can do here as well - guess.
Later CD mastering folks could have (and apparently did) pick out
similarly arbitrary start points, likely choosing either a short snippet or a
longer portion of the end of "Bonus Break" at the start. This surely
explains the (4:28) and (4:32) lengths you've found on those CDs, Doug.
Finally, I am fairly sure I do have a promo 7" copy of that listed (4:05)
version somewhere. I just checked, and it wasn't in either of the two 45
boxes I thought it was most likely to have been filed. I don't recall if my
copy is the one-sided or two-sided promo 45. But either one should help
a lot, because we can then determine exactly how/where the song actually
starts on there, and its actual time. I will go digging some more for that
promo ASAP, but it might be a month or two. If and when I find it, I'll
shoot that one out to you as well, Doug. Meanwhile, if someone else can
help sooner with it, please feel free. I'm not optimistic, though, as that
promo 45 is both very rare and quite expensive.
Edited by jimct on 04 February 2016 at 7:56pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 04 February 2016 at 8:21pm | IP Logged
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This song is definitely in my wheelhouse, but unfortunately, I don't have a copy on vinyl. I do, however, have it on several different rap compilations. This may be totally unhelpful, but I just timed them all for you, Doug.
(7:28) Rapmasters 8 (Priority)
(4:28) Millennium Hip-Hop Party (Rhino)
(7:27) Hip Hop Greats (Rhino)
(4:28) Best Of Sugar Hill Records (Rhino)
(7:37) Hip-Hop Essentials Vol. 4 (Tommy Boy) (:09 longer than the other 12" versions on CD and more in line with the printed run time of the vinyl; the 7:28 versions are faded earlier than this one)
(4:28) Sugar Hill Records - Definitive Groove Collection (Rhino)
(4:27) Rap Attack (1997 import on Disky) (a different mix from the 12" and 4:28 version)
(7:23) Message From Beat Street (Warner Bros.) (sped up quite a bit compared to other CD versions)
(7:24) Richard Blade's Flashback Favorites Vol. 2 (Oglio)
(3:11) Now 1984 (import on EMI/Virgin/Polygram) (a different mix from the 12" and 4:28 version, and not the same as the mix on Rap Attack either)
(4:26) 100 Dance Hits Of the '80s (import on Connoisseur Collection)
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aaronk
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| Posted: 04 February 2016 at 8:32pm | IP Logged
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Oh, and a bit of trivia on this one. The record is actually credited to "Grandmaster & Melle Mel." Grandmaster Flash had left the group by the time this came out. In fact, Grandmaster Flash rarely ever appeared on the group's songs, even before he left, including their most famous hit "The Message." Flash's main role in the group was to be the DJ, while Melle Mel was the MC/rapper. Since many of their recorded songs don't contain any turntablism or scratching, that meant Flash wasn't on them.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 04 February 2016 at 9:09pm | IP Logged
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Good question. I don't have many answers, but I can flesh out your question a little more.
The artist is credited as Grandmaster & Melle Mel, and the title really does have two "don'ts" in it.
The US 12" single was on Sugar Hill Records SH-465, with a copyright date of 1983. The 12" single has four versions, with the following tracks:
Track 1 on A-side: White Lines (Don't Don't Do It) - printed 7:38
Track 2 on A-side: White Lines (Don't Don't Do It) [Bonus] - printed 2:16
Track 1 on B-side: White Lines (Don't Don't Do It) [Bonus Break] - printed 2:34
Track 2 on B-side: White Lines (Don't Don't Do It) [Short Version] - printed 4:10
Some pressings of the 12" single have a different song on the B-side: Melle Mel's Groove, with a printed time of 5:56. I don't know which pressing came first. The version with Melle Mel's Groove on the B-side was also released with a catalog number of SH-32009, with an additional credit of "Mfg. & Dist. by MCA Dist. Corp."
The 7:30-ish 12" single version turns up on a few compilations:- Priority's Rapmasters 8 (1989) - sounds like it has a lot of noise reduction; intro has all the life sucked out of it
- Rhino's Hip Hop Greats (1990) - sounds great here
- Richard Blade's Flashback Favorites Vol. 2 (1993) - balance is off, making the left channel a dB or two louder than the right
The Rhino disc is the clear winner here.
In the US, there was a promo 7" on Sugar Hill Records SH-806, also with a copyright date of 1983. This has a printed time of 4:05. I don't know if the 4:05 promo 45 version is the same version as the 4:10 "Short Version" from the 12" single.
In 1998, I think I reverse-engineered the US promo 45 version from an actual promo 45. (I didn't keep detailed notes back then.) Assuming that I really did work on recreating the US promo 45, the US promo 45 version can be edited down from Rhino's Hip Hop Greats (1990), but it's a pain - it involves 10 different segments from the song, plus an early fade. I may post editing instructions tomorrow.
The 4:32 version is a completely different edit from the US promo 45 version, edited from different portions of the 12" single version. You can't edit the US promo 45 version down from the 4:32 version, because the intros use different parts of the 12" single version.
I don't think the 4:32 version was released in the US at the time. My guess is that it was the UK 45 version (and that's entirely a guess), because that 4:32 edit turns up on a UK 5-CD set from Connoisseur Collection called One Hundred Dance Hits Of The Eighties (1990). The 4:32 version also appeared on Rhino's Best Of Sugar Hill Records (1998) and Rhino's Millennium Hip-Hop Party (1999). Both sound very nice. There's a rerecording of "White Lines" on Grandmaster Flash's 1994 collection White Lines & Other Messages - avoid.
Finally, there's a 3:11 version on Virgin EMI Polygram UK's 2-CD Now 1984 (1993), which sounds more like a Bonus Beats version than an actual single version. It's pretty terrible - avoid.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 05 February 2016 at 8:07am
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sriv94
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| Posted: 04 February 2016 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
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Thx to all of you. Haven't had the chance to get Jim's dub as of yet, but
I agree with him that the short promo starts with the vocal. Oddly
enough, WLS/Chicago was one station that did play the song (listing it
on its weekly survey with the notation that it was only available as a
12"). And my scant remembering of hearing the song starts with the
cold vocal instead of music.
I have an inquiry out to see if someone might have an unscoped
aircheck from WLS. Tim Brown (who posts here occasionally) might.
WLS played it between December 1983 and January/February 1984.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 04 February 2016 at 11:45pm | IP Logged
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I'll be anxious to hear how to get to the proper 4:05
promo version as all I have is the 4:28 version too.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 06 February 2016 at 3:33pm | IP Logged
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Any update on this?
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 06 February 2016 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
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Here are the editing instructions for creating (what I assume is) the promo 45 version from the 12 inch single version on Rhino's Hip Hop Greats (1990).
Segment 1
Extends from 0:00.0 to 0:12.3 of 12 inch single version and promo 45 edit
Begins with "fun baby"
Ends on third bass drum hit
Remove the 8 beats from 0:12.3 to 0:16.4 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 2
Two beats long
Extends from 0:12.3 to 0:13.3 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 0:16.4 to 0:17.5 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 16 beats from 0:17.5 to 0:25.8 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 3
48 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 0:13.3 to 0:38.4 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 0:25.8 to 0:50.9 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 16 beats from 0:50.9 to 0:59.2 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 4
105 beats long
Begins on a downbeat
Ends on a snare
Extends from 0:38.4 to 1:33.1 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 0:59.2 to 1:53.9 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 16 beats from 1:53.9 to 2:02.2 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 5
35 beats long
Begins on a snare
Ends on a downbeat
Extends from 1:33.1 to 1:51.3 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 2:02.2 to 2:20.5 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 8 beats from 2:20.5 to 2:24.7 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 6
75 beats long
Begins on a downbeat
Ends on a snare
Extends from 1:51.3 to 2:30.3 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 2:24.7 to 3:03.7 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 8 beats from 3:03.7 to 3:07.9 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 7
34 beats long
Begins on a snare
Ends on a snare
Extends from 2:30.3 to 2:48.1 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 3:07.9 to 3:25.6 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 16 beats from 3:25.6 to 3:34.0 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 8
35 beats long
Begins on a snare
Ends on a downbeat
Extends from 2:48.1 to 3:06.4 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 3:34.0 to 3:52.3 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 8 beats from 3:52.3 to 3:56.4 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 9
51 beats long
Begins on a downbeat
Ends on a snare
Extends from 3:06.4 to 3:33.0 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 3:56.4 to 4:23.0 of the 12 inch single version
Remove the 22 beats from 4:23.0 to 4:34.5 of the 12 inch single version.
Segment 10
59 beats long
Begins on a snare
Ends on a downbeat
Extends from 3:33.0 to 4:03.6 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 4:34.5 to 5:05.2 of the 12 inch single version
Fade
8 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 3:59.5 to 4:03.6 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 5:01.1 to 5:05.2 of the 12 inch single version
I originally did this edit over 17 years ago (!), and I can't guarantee with 100% certainty that everything's correct. I do remember that I wasn't so good with fades back then, so the fade start and end points could be off a little.
If I may editorialize, I think this is a pretty badly-done edit. For most simple pop songs, like this one, I've learned that if you want your edit to keep the flow of the song, then take out 16 beats, or 32 beats, or some other multiple of 16 beats. Taking out 8 beats will sound goofy, which is why about half of these edits sound strange. The last edit,
which cuts out 22 beats and deliberately cuts out the "a business is caught with 24 kilos/he's out on bail and out of jail and that's the way it goes" lines, sounds especially jarring, to my ears.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 06 February 2016 at 5:23pm | IP Logged
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Wow! 17 years ago, I was about 8 years away from
discovering this site and knew NOTHING about 45
versions, Promo Edits etc.
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jimct
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| Posted: 19 February 2016 at 1:04pm | IP Logged
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I have finally managed to locate my one-sided Sugar Hill 806 listed (4:05)
promo 45 - on vinyl, no less. (Surprising only because I recall all of my other
Sugar Hill 45s, be it promo or stock, was always pressed on styrene.)
It has an actual time of (4:06), with handwritten deadwax of "VID-6005-A",
followed by "TRUTONE-PA-10-83".
I have already shot out dubs of this to Aaron and Doug, and after just now
re-reading this thread, I will do the same later today for "also interested
parties" Ron and John.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 19 February 2016 at 1:33pm | IP Logged
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Jim's promo 45 is a really good edit of the song, and is very different from what I posted above.
I humbly retract the editing instructions from above, since they're not even close to what's on the real US promo 45.
(I know I reverse-engineered *something*, but after 17 years, I don't remember what it was. Regardless, it's a terrible edit. Don't use it.)
I will re-investigate shortly, and will post revised editing instructions.
Thanks, Jim!
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 19 February 2016 at 3:46pm | IP Logged
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I was able to easily recreate Jim's promo 45 from the
4:29 1 track single on Rhapsody.
Remove from 0:00.000 - 0:08.326
With what you have left, place a fade, beginning on the
word "rock" at 3:59.3 to the word "freeze" at 4:06.2
Ending file runs 4:06.2
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 19 February 2016 at 8:44pm | IP Logged
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Confirming eriejwg's findings - this one is really easy if you start with one of the Rhino discs.
The version on Rhino's Best Of Sugar Hill Records (1998) sounds great. The version on Rhino's Millennium Hip-Hop Party (1999) is digitally exactly 1.431 dB quieter than Best Of Sugar Hill Records. Both have the same timings if you want to do your own edits.
My editing instructions are basically the same as eriejwg's, but I start my fade a few beats earlier. (I use a sinusoidal-shape fade in Cool Edit Pro, which has a very gentle start.)
Remove the 16 beats from 0:00 to 0:08.9 of the Rhino versions.
Segment 1
472 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 0:00.0 to 4:05.5 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 0:08.9 to 4:14.4 of the Rhino versions
Fade
16 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 3:57.1 to 4:05.5 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 4:06.0 to 4:14.4 of the Rhino versions
Your mixdown will have no edits in it, will run 4:05.5, and will have a 16-beat long fade from 3:57.1 to 4:05.5.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 20 February 2016 at 12:42am | IP Logged
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Glad that's all straightened out!
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: "White Lines" - Grandmaster Flash
