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sriv94
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| Posted: 24 January 2006 at 9:07pm | IP Logged
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Hi again, everyone!
Tonight's question for the class concerns the single version of "Gypsy" by Fleetwood Mac. Having heard a shorter version on the radio recently, it sounds like not only is the song edited towards the end but there are mixing differences as well (meaning that the 45 cannot be created simply by editing the LP). Is that indeed the case?
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 24 January 2006 at 9:45pm | IP Logged
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Doug:
Funny you should mention Fleetwood Mac's "Gypsy" because I've been listening to my CD-R copy of the 45 version just this evening. And you are correct... there is a mix difference toward the end of the song and, therefore, the 45 version cannot be extracted simply by editing the LP version.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 25 January 2006 at 11:48am | IP Logged
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Todd, I think I sent you a copy of this one from TM Century's library. Did they do an LP edit, or is this actually the correct mix?
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 26 January 2006 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
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Aaron:
Yes, my 45 version copy of "Gypsy" is the one you were very kind to burn onto CD-R for me. (I purposely didn't mention your name because I wasn't sure how you'd feel about potentially having other people on the message board asking you to burn them a copy too!) The 45 version is not an edit of the LP. The version you burned onto CD-R for me from your TM Century disc is indeed the correct 45 version.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 26 January 2006 at 10:26pm
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aaronk
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That's very interesting, Todd. Knowing what I know about TM's operation, it's rare that a different MIX show up on one of their cds, unless it was available commercially or promotionally. That leads me to believe that the correct 45 version has appeared on a cd somewhere, promo or otherwise. As far as I know, they usually didn't have access to the original masters from the labels to get the correct versions---however, I could be wrong.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 27 January 2006 at 7:59am | IP Logged
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Aaron:
As far as I can tell, TM Century also used the correct 45 version of Miami Sound Machine's "Bad Boy" (you burned this onto CD-R for me as well), which I believe is a different mix than the LP version. Do you know if the 45 version was ever released on a promo CD? It doesn't look like it's ever been on a commercially released CD in the U.S.
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Roscoe
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I haven't had a chance to dig my Gypsy 45 out of storage. Has anyone checked to see if the 45 version can be recreated from the long mix found on The Chain box set?
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 27 January 2006 at 10:12am | IP Logged
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TM Century certainly on occasion dubs from clean vinyl.
TM Century (and certain powerful radio stations) had access to select reel-to-reel "dub of masters" in the 80s. That was a period in time (pre-CD) when some radio stations were concerned about sound quality and getting annoyed with scratchy vinyl sound on-the-air.
Andy
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aaronk
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| Posted: 27 January 2006 at 7:16pm | IP Logged
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Andy, I was just about to bring up that point. I have a good friend who has a closet full of 15 ips reel to reel tapes that were sent to a radio station he worked for back in the 80s. My guess would be that since the mixes of "Gypsy" and "Bad Boy" (as Todd points out) have never shown up commercially on CD, it is certainly possible the source was one of the reel to reel tapes.
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crapfromthepast
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I found a file of Aaron's TM Century 45 version, and it's definitely from a tape source with no NR. I don't know how that's possible, but there it is. The 45 version on swaitek's The A List Disc 9 (1994) seems to be based on the TM Century version, also from tape, and also with no NR.
However, the TM Century version doesn't match the 45 at an edit point. It's only off a few beats, but we're sticklers here.
So, I attempted to dissect the TM Century version. I discovered that it's a differently-EQ'd digital clone of the green Greatest Hits (1988) version, until 3:11.5, which is a downbeat where the word "you" should go in the line "and it all comes down to you". I believe that the true 45 has its edit on the snare hit at the word "comes" in the same line at about 3:10. After that word "you" at 3:11.5, the TM Century version matches the 45 exactly. I don't know what source TM Century used after the 3:11.5 point in the song, but it's pretty seamless to my ears. I don't hear an edit, or a change in sound quality, or an increase in hiss, or anything. It's pretty pristine, except for the misplaced edit.
So... I attempted to recreate the true 45 edit from the un-edited version on 25 Years The Chain (1992). It doesn't work. They track together until a downbeat at 3:00.1 on 25 Years, then there's an ad-lib in the 45 from 3:00 to 3:08 that I can't locate in the unedited 25 Years version.
It may be possible to port that ad-lib in portion from the LP version on Greatest Hits, then use 25 Years for the rest of the song, but there's a significant difference in tempo and EQ for the two discs. I gave up.
That TM Century version may be as close as we can get until one of us does a great needledrop of the vinyl 45. I don't think it was released on 12" vinyl anywhere, unless Germany's PRCD 647 is a promo 12".
To recap, the TM Century version differs from the true 45 version for exactly 3 beats, from a snare hit at "comes" (3:10.2 in the TM Century version), to a downbeat at "you" (3:11.6 in the TM Century version). The TM Century version also tracks with the 1988 Greatest Hits version until the 3:11.6 point.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 23 August 2019 at 7:14am
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Roscoe
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crapfromthepast wrote:
It may be possible to port that ad-lib in portion from
the LP version on Greatest Hits, then use 25
Years for the rest of the song, but there's a
significant difference in tempo and EQ for the two discs.
I gave up.
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If you're referring the faint "ooh" ad-lib that appears
at about the 3:14 mark on the 45, that portion doesn't
appear on either the LP version or the long version from
The Chain box set; it is entirely unique to the 45. So,
unfortunately, the "Gypsy" 45 version can't be recreated
from any digital sources.
I did manage to stitch together a pretty seamless version
using a 24/96 download from HDTracks and inserting the
unique section from a needledrop of the 45. It required
some EQ experimentation but worked fairly well.
Edited by Roscoe on 25 October 2013 at 7:03pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 25 October 2013 at 10:14pm | IP Logged
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crapfromthepast wrote:
| I don't know what source TM Century used after the 3:11.5 point in the song, but it's pretty seamless to my ears. I don't hear an edit, or a change in sound quality, or an increase in hiss, or anything. It's pretty pristine, except for the misplaced edit. |
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A few years after this thread was started, I went back and listened to the TM edit again. I was able to hear where the source changed, as there was a slight (but barely noticeable) change in EQ. I tinkered with the EQ on their copy, and that is what you have, Ron.
I just rechecked TM's edit against the 45, and I see what you mean about their goof. This was simply an error when they spliced in the vinyl 45. I have corrected the edit, and it now matches the 45 exactly.
Edited by aaronk on 25 October 2013 at 11:23pm
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Aaron Kannowski
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Bwci Bo
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'Mirage' is set to be released as a deluxe 2 disc and 5 disc edition, but rather disappointingly, there's no sign of the 45 version of 'Gypsy' on either set.
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Vince
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Hi, I'm new to the forum. Is the video mix of "Gypsy" from the deluxe Mirage the same mix as the 45. If so, I think you can get the 45 version with two edits of the video version. One at 3:08 and the other at 3:28.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 22 August 2019 at 10:36pm | IP Logged
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Welcome to the forum, Vince! I think you may be onto something here. I
think the Video Version is the same mix as the LP version but longer
(unedited). I haven't tried it myself, but perhaps both the single version
and LP version were edited from this slightly longer take.
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Aaron Kannowski
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aaronk
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I just compared the LP version, single version (dubbed from my 45), and the Video Version from the expanded reissue. All are the same mix. (By contrast, the even-longer Alternate Unedited Version from "25 Years: The Chain" is a slightly different mix.)
If you want to use the Video Version to create the 45 version, simply remove 3:08 to 3:37 with your edit just before the word "comes" in both places. Also remove 3:54 to 4:23 on the snare hit.
Having done this, I can tell the Video Version uses a noticeably higher generation tape, and there are some minor dropouts. The Video Version also fades a few seconds earlier than the 45. For me, I had a much better and more closely matched result inserting a short section of my 45 dub. Switching between the LP version on CD and Video Version is obvious to my ears, but it's pretty seamless when going from the CD LP version to my 45.
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Aaron Kannowski
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Vince
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| Posted: 29 August 2019 at 11:23pm | IP Logged
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Thanks Aaron.
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Scanner
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| Posted: 13 April 2022 at 6:53am | IP Logged
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There have always been some glaring disparities between
Billboard (sales + airplay) versus R&R (airplay only) Pop
charts. "Gypsy" is one of those topping the R&R chart, but
not even reaching the Billboard Top 10 peaking at # 12.
For this song, why was there such a difference? "Gypsy" is
still a presence on radio 40 years later. You would think
its radio success would have translated to much better
sales for the song back during its chart run in 1982.
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AndrewChouffi
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Scanner wrote:
There have always been some glaring
disparities between
Billboard (sales + airplay) versus R&R (airplay only) Pop
charts. "Gypsy" is one of those topping the R&R chart,
but
not even reaching the Billboard Top 10 peaking at # 12.
For this song, why was there such a difference? "Gypsy"
is
still a presence on radio 40 years later. You would
think
its radio success would have translated to much better
sales for the song back during its chart run in 1982.
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Scanner, it's hard to do any meaningful comparison of the
different charts back then because every magazine had a
different panel of reporters. I've been told that R&R in
the early-to-mid 80s had probably the "best" panel of
radio reporters as they were not afraid to drop you from
reporting status if you had a couple of bad quarterly
books...
In addition, some hit airplay records just lent
themselves to single sales, while others like "Gypsy"
were a 2nd single from a hit album by a 'name' group.
Many people who really liked the song already owned it
because they bought the album around the time of the
saturation airplay of "Hold Me", or they bought the album
because there were now two hit songs on the same album by
Fleetwood Mac (who were known by then to have very good
albums).
Andy
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KentT
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| Posted: 13 April 2022 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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AndrewChouffi wrote:
TM Century certainly on occasion
dubs from clean vinyl.
TM Century (and certain powerful radio stations) had
access to select reel-to-reel "dub of masters" in the
80s. That was a period in time (pre-CD) when some radio
stations were concerned about sound quality and getting
annoyed with scratchy vinyl sound on-the-air.
Andy |
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They did not have master tape dubs. They dubbed LP discs
and declicked them via editing tape, then by using CEDAR.
Rarely did a radio station get a master dub, only in very
special situations and if they had major pull with a
record label.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: "Gypsy" - Fleetwood Mac
