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eriejwg
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| Posted: 19 December 2010 at 9:17pm | IP Logged
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I know the 45 speed/length is on a couple of CD's, but can the 45 speed/length be recreated? If so, speed/fade points, if possible...
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aaronk
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| Posted: 19 December 2010 at 11:07pm | IP Logged
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It's pitched up by 2.5%. I would presume that the fade starts at the same point as on the album but just dumps out earlier. After you perform the increase in pitch, the fade will start at 3:40. Given the 3:55 run time of the discs with the 45 length/speed, that would make the fade about 15 seconds long. By contrast, the LP fade out goes on for nearly 30 seconds.
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EdisonLite
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For some reason, I felt that the pitch increases as the song goes on, incrementally of course so it's not noticeable. For instance (and I don't know the exact numbers), it might start out at 1% faster but by the last chorus be 2.5% faster. I could be completely wrong about this - this is sort of what I noticed back in the '80s. Is there anyone here who's an expert on speeds who can determine if this is what's going on? Or is it exactly 2.5% faster all the way through from beginning to end?
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 20 December 2010 at 12:34am | IP Logged
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And one thing I always remembered about the early fade on the 45. On the album version at the very end, there is one "If ever you're in my arms again" that is not present on the 45 version because the 45 is over at this point, and what's interesting is that Peabo's enunciation of "ever" in that one line is closer to "ev-uh", whereas on all other lines in the song, the "r" is more present, as in "ever". So on the 45, you never hear that slightly different (less proper) enunciation.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 20 December 2010 at 9:35am | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
| Is it exactly 2.5% faster all the way through from beginning to end? |
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Good question. I essentially looked at the database, found one that was labeled "45 speed," and found a sample of that CD online to determine how much it was pitched up. One of the K-Tel discs, during the 30 second sample, was pitched up by 2.5%, which is where my number comes from. I probably shouldn't assume that the pitch is constant throughout, so I'll see if I can track down an actual dub of the 45. I will say, though, that in the hundreds of custom edits I've worked on, not once have I needed to do a gradual pitch increase to the source file.
One thing to note about the sample I heard was that the 2.5% pitch was toward the beginning of the song, so that would lead me to believe that if there is a gradual increase, it would have been all the way to "top speed" by about a minute into the song. Also, there is a key change later in the song, so maybe that's what you're remembering, EdisonLite?
Edited by aaronk on 20 December 2010 at 9:42am
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 20 December 2010 at 6:13pm | IP Logged
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Checked my CD copies. Didn't see any drift in any of them. The song is played with a click track, so it's pretty easy to check the CDs.
The earliest CD I have it on is Warner Special Products' 3-CD Secret Love (1987), where it runs at 48.0 BPM throughout. The same analog transfer is used for Time Life's 2-CD Body Talk (1994).
There's a different analog transfer on Priority's Eighties Greatest Rock Hits Vol. 13 (1994), which is almost certainly a digital clone of another CD (based on my experience with that particular Priority disc).
It runs at 48.2 BPM throughout. There are differently EQ'd digital clones on Time-Life's Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 15 - The Mid-'80s (1996; may be some extra compression/limiting), Time-Life's 2-CD Body Talk Vol. 2 - Just For You (1996), and Time-Life's 2-CD Body And Soul Vol. 9 - Sweet Embrace (1999; digitally identical to Just For You). The version on The A-List sounds pretty close to the above discs.
No tempo drifts on any of these. Not sure what's on the 45, though.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 13 September 2012 at 7:36am
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EdisonLite
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Aaron, I'm familiar with the key change and it's definitely not what I'm remembering. And also, if it does speed up, it doesn't mean it stops at 2.5% in the middle. It could well go all the way to 3.5% by the end.
Crapfromthepast, if you check the database, are any of your CDs you reference above using what Pat labels the 45 speed/length? If they're all the album speed/length, there would be no speed up. It would only occur in the single. Also, there's the possibility that some of these CDs contained a sped up tape but may not exactly be the single master (it's not likely but it IS possible.)
I analyzed this song on CD probably around 1985-1986, so it's been 25 years, and my ears weren't as good then as they are now, but my recollection is that the difference between the 45 and CD speed at the beginning of the song was definitely noticeable but minor - and by the end of the song, the 45 seemed a lot faster than the CD.
Unfortunately, I don't know where the 45 is now. But perhaps someone like Jim has one he can share with you for reference.
Edited by EdisonLite on 20 December 2010 at 7:18pm
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aaronk
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Hopefully someone with the actual 45 can help answer your question,
EdisonLite. I figured it probably wasn't the key change, but it doesn't
hurt to ask. One other possibility, if you're recalling what you heard on
the radio, is that someone carted it up while gradually increasing the
turntable speed. I remember one instance of this happening on the
local top 40 station where I lived back in '85. It was the extended
version of Oh Sheila. Years later, when I got my first radio job, it made
sense why the station gradually sped up the song. That station used
to play everything from cart. Carts were made in different lengths, one
of them being 6 1/2 minutes. My guess is that the music director
attempted to fit a 6:48 song onto a 6:30 cart!
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 20 December 2010 at 9:05pm | IP Logged
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Aaron, no I wasn't recalling what I heard on the radio. It was definitely a comparison of 45 to LP.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 12 September 2012 at 6:50pm | IP Logged
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Just got to hear a dub of the 45. The dub runs about 49.3 BPM throughout, with a few edits but no tempo drift. That's about 2.3% faster than the LP versions on CD. I didn't play the 45 on my Technics 1200, so I can't guarantee that 49.3 BPM is the exact tempo, but there wasn't any tempo drift.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 13 September 2012 at 7:35am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 12 September 2012 at 8:48pm | IP Logged
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crapfromthepast wrote:
Just got to hear a dub of the 45. The dub runs about 49.3
BPM throughout, with a few edits but no tempo drift. |
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:-( Does this mean the 45 is edited?
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NightAire
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| Posted: 12 September 2012 at 10:13pm | IP Logged
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I'm having a hard time making the details of these posts add up to a single edit:
----------
4:13
Take nine seconds off the front.
Speed up 2.3%.
Lop three seconds off the back.
3:55.
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EdisonLite wrote:
| ...there is one "If ever you're in my arms again" that is not present on the 45 version because the 45 is over at this point... |
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PROBLEM: I did NOT have to cut out an "ever" (or "evah") to take 4:13 to 3:55.
SECOND PROBLEM: what else could you take out and still be able to speed it up and still have it run 3:55?
Ah is corn-few-zed!!!
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aaronk
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There is a video on YouTube of someone playing the promo 12". The sticker on the cover shows "LP Version - 4:02" but it's clearly not. The song plays pitched up by about 2.5% and is simply an early fade of the full LP version, running 3:55. This seems to match what Pat has already detailed in the database.
Unless the 45 doesn't match the promo 12", it would appear that the 45 is merely sped up by about 2.5% and faded early.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 13 September 2012 at 7:34am | IP Logged
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aaronk wrote:
crapfromthepast wrote:
Just got to hear a dub of the 45. The dub runs about 49.3
BPM throughout, with a few edits but no tempo drift. |
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:-( Does this mean the 45 is edited? |
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Oops - Just realized this morning that "edits" was a very poor choice of words on my part.
To be clear, the 45 is just a sped-up early fade of the LP version. Easy to recreate from the LP version - no editing required. My apologies for causing any confusion here.
In the spirit of "too much information":
My use of "edit" came from how I determine the BPM of the song. If the song is played all the way through with a click track, then the beats should fall at regular locations throughout the song. If the master tape is edited at some point, and the edit removes a bit too little or a bit too much material, the beats seem a bit off after the edit. These usually happen at a transition to the bridge, or some other structural transition in the song. Very often, in my notes, I'll note these "edit" points if I think they're significant.
In practice, the only reason you'd really care about such things is if you're beat-matching, because suddenly one of your songs would be way off. The only other time these "edit" points came in handy is when I reverse-engineered the edit in "Sexual Healing" to determine that the 45 version came out first, and was edited down to the more-common LP version.
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EdisonLite
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But isn't it all possible, on "If Ever You're In My Arms Again" that the live drummer sped up for the bridge (and even the measure before the bridge). That may have been the case in this song. The drummer may have played with a live, "natural" feel, and not to a click track. I know the producer Michael Masser really took a "live" (and non-digital) approach on his recordings. So the master tape might not have been edited at all, but simply slipping away from the BPM because of the live rummer.
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crapfromthepast
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EdisonLite wrote:
| But isn't it all possible, on "If Ever You're In My Arms Again" that the live drummer sped up for the bridge (and even the measure before the bridge). That may have been the case in this song. The drummer may have played with a live, "natural" feel, and not to a click track. I know the producer Michael Masser really took a "live" (and non-digital) approach on his recordings. So the master tape might not have been edited at all, but simply slipping away from the BPM because of the live rummer. |
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Possible, but I still think it's a click track.
Using Cool Edit, I can visually see what natural tempo drift looks like for a live drummer with no click track. Example: Tony Thompson from Chic was one of the best timekeepers that ever picked up sticks, and even his drumming showed a little drift - like from 120 BPM at the beginning of "Le Freak" to 121 BPM at the end. It's a really small drift, and wouldn't be noticeable by anybody playing or singing with him, but it would be noticeable if you tried to stay beat-matched with a song that uses a drum machine.
For songs with a drum machine or click track, there's no tempo drift or variation in BPM whatsoever. The Gin Blossoms hits are good examples of click tracks, in case you want to see what I'm talking about.
Using click tracks for the ballads was becoming fairly common in 1984. "Against All Odds", "Sister Christian", "I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues" and "Almost Paradise" all used click tracks.
There were still a good percentage of hits that didn't use click tracks in 1984, though. "Hello", "Talking In Your Sleep", the Huey Lewis hits from Sports except for "I Want A New Drug", "The Warrior", and the Van Halen hits from the 1984 album were all played live with no click track.
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NightAire
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Just to beat a dead horse:
The single version doesn't lose the first nine seconds of the LP version to shorten the intro?
I beat this point into the ground because I found a YouTube video (I know: almost as reliable as Wikipedia) that starts nine seconds in and seems to start cleanly.
I just want to make 100% sure... I want to edit and forget it! :)
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Fetta
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| Posted: 14 September 2012 at 3:31am | IP Logged
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[/QUOTE]
Using Cool Edit, I can visually see what natural tempo drift looks like for a live drummer with no click track. Example: Tony Thompson from Chic was one of the best timekeepers that ever picked up sticks, and even his drumming showed a little drift - like from 120 BPM at the beginning of "Le Freak" to 121 BPM at the end. It's a really small drift, and wouldn't be noticeable by anybody playing or singing with him, but it would be noticeable if you tried to stay beat-matched with a song that uses a drum machine.
[/QUOTE]
While I love mixing disco, it is definitely a task as the drum drifts are all over the place since they primarily used live drummers. My hand is constantly moving the pitch control to stay on the mix. Check out the 12" mix of "Haven't Stopped Dancing Yet" by Gonzalez. That beat seems to fly all over the place.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 14 September 2012 at 5:36am | IP Logged
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NightAire wrote:
Just to beat a dead horse:
The single version doesn't lose the first nine seconds of
the LP version to shorten the intro?
I beat this point into the ground because I found a
YouTube video (I know: almost as reliable as Wikipedia)
that starts nine seconds in and seems to start cleanly.
I just want to make 100% sure... I want to edit and
forget it! :) |
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Nope - the video isn't correct.
The 45 is just the LP version sped up and faded a little
early. The 45 fade actually begins at the same point in
the song as the LP fade, but the tail of the fade is
hastened by about 12 seconds.
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thecdguy
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I was looking at the 45 listings for this song
on Discogs
and apparently there were two different labels
issued,
one with a mostly black and red color with a
listed time
of 3:55 and another with a mostly white cover
with a
listed time of 4:02. Can anyone with either or
both 45
variations confirm that there are two separate
running
times, or is one just a misprint?
Edited by thecdguy on 22 September 2023 at 2:57pm
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Peabo Bryson - If Ever You’re In My Arms
