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davidclark
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| Posted: 05 June 2006 at 12:32pm | IP Logged
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database indicates alternate take for stereo appearances. Can someone please point me where I need to listen for the differences? I do realize the stereo is missing the reverb of the mono, but I can't seem to hear the differences. Is it just the vocal or the entire song? thanks.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 05 June 2006 at 12:36pm | IP Logged
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There's been some dispute about that. Most BSNers swear it's a different take. Pat initially said he couldn't hear it, and initially did NOT designate it as a different take in the database. Steve Hoffman, who used it on one of his comps, has said he is not convinced it's a different take. But most oldies enthusiasists seem to feel it is. So who knows?
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 05 June 2006 at 12:42pm | IP Logged
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I did carry on a discussion on the Both Sides Now chat board about a year ago and here is what I reported and still stand by to this day:
Let me express my justification for the comment "alternate take" on all stereo (yes including Varese) versions of Chapel Of Love. The 45 version (mono) simply has different instrumentation in segments when compared to the stereo versions. Listen carefully from 2:00 to 2:04 on the mono versions as the chimes are different than they are on the stereo version. There is a chime or xylophone note present on the stereo version at 2:22 and 2:26 that does not appear on the mono version at all. Vocally I hear differences also although one could argue that is due to the mix so I would rather not go into that aspect. Now comes the question of whether the stereo vinyl LP version is the same as the stereo cd versions and again I say no they are not the same - listen again to the chimes at 2:00-2:02 on the vinyl and cd versions.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 05 June 2006 at 12:51pm | IP Logged
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Oh, sorry, I guess I remembered that wrong.
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anthology123
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| Posted: 06 June 2006 at 1:08pm | IP Logged
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The intro is where it sounds different to me, otherwise it does sound like the
same recording the rest of the way through
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BillCahill
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| Posted: 09 June 2006 at 8:54am | IP Logged
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Yeah this is an old discussion to be sure. This is a comparison of the Red Bird Stereo LP version (which was always different than the single ) and the stereo versions that have been released on CD. I used to believe there was some difference with the bells, now I'm not as sure. It may just be a difference in compression and mix. However, there is a difference with the singing, which I have sent Pat clips of in the past. On the stereo CD issues the singing of one of the vocals in the mix just sounds "flat" where it doesn't on the original stereo LP (and not just on the intro). That may be a mix difference, but I believe it's possible that one extra vocal was added to the entire song which hides the flat vocal, or that flat vocal was re-sung for the LP version. To me, it's tough to tell definitively if this is an alternate take, or simply missing vocal overdubs. Just my opinion.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 09 June 2006 at 5:24pm | IP Logged
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I suppose one could always dub in the acapella intro from the 45 version onto the stereo version.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 20 December 2011 at 11:50pm | IP Logged
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At present, the database has an "alternate take" comment next to every stereo CD appearance of the Dixie Cups' "Chapel of Love"... except for one: 60 Number One Hits Of The '60s Volume Five (Razor & Tie 81019). I tend to doubt that a true stereo mix of the 45 version surfaced on this disc, so am I correct in assuming this CD should have an "alternate take" comment as well?
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MMathews
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| Posted: 21 December 2011 at 5:56pm | IP Logged
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I was going to do a synch test on this a few years ago for
the BSN discussion, but never got around to it. I should
have time this week, so i'll give it a try. A synch test
reveals all.
Up til now, my ears told me the stereo mix is a total
under-dub, missing an entire set of vocals that were laid
on top of the first set.
I'll report as soon i have a comparison file ready (stereo
alternate in one channel, mono 45 in the other.)
MM
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 22 December 2011 at 2:16am | IP Logged
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Well, you have good ears, Mark, so I look forward to your findings.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 22 December 2011 at 4:44pm | IP Logged
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Ok
Thanks to Ed for providing me a dub of the original 45.
Now, for my purposes here, "stereo mix" refers only to
the more modern stereo mix that first appeared on CD. To
my knowledge, first issued on the 1995 DCC disc "Too
Cute" mastered by Steve Hoffman.
This new mix was different than the old vinyl stereo;
that was a very strange mix that first appeared on the
1967 v/a comp called "Incense And Oldies" on Buddah. I
don't have access to the vinyl stereo mix right now.
When the CD mix first came out, Mike Callahan thought it
was an underdub only missing some reverb, and the "yeah
yeah's" during the ending.
So later cd's by Taragon (Red Bird/Blue Cat Story), and
then Varese too, used the new CD mix and synched in the
"yeah yeah's" and added reverb.
It still sounded to me like a vocal underdub through-out.
The mono 45 mix has lush, thick vocals, more than just
added reverb. It stands out more in the harmony parts,
such the line "we'll love until the end of time".
So, for comparison I synched the 45 dub to one of the
mono CD appearances to be sure that
version/length/overdubs all matched, and they do. For the
mono source, I ended up chosing the soundtrack to "Full
Metal Jacket" since it sounds nice and clean there.
I also synched the original 45 to the stereo version and
the backing tracks are indeed identical.
However, note Pat's comment about the chimes at 2:00 -
2:04. They ARE different, but only in that one spot. In
the stereo mix, the chimes there are a lower octave and
on the 45 they are higher there. At some point when
finishing the mono mix, they wanted those chimes higher
so they must have dubbed them right over the low ones,
since again, the backing track is identical.
The chime/xylophone at 2:22 is simply potted down in the
45, was left turned up in the stereo mix.
The VOCALS i think i need other ears to help me out here.
They are either an alternate vocal take, OR an underdub.
When you synch an underdub in one channel, and the full
version with overdubbed vocals in the other, you
typically get a stereo effect with vocals sounding split
left and right. But you also get this effect when they
are 2 different takes. One can usually tell the
difference if one listens closely. Well, I'm leaning
towards underdub as i thought, but can anyone lend me an
ear?
PM me and i'll email an mp3 of my synch file.
Any help much appreciated.
My synch file is:
left channel: The DCC stereo mix, folded to mono
right channel: the mono 45 mix taken from CD.
PS - if this is an underdub, my tests of synching this
tell me i can make a pleasing stereo mix of this with all
the missing overdubs, it should sound pretty nice. -MM
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AdvprosD
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| Posted: 03 March 2024 at 7:13pm | IP Logged
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With a database as huge as this, I will likely spend the rest of my natural life finding new things about these old tracks.
I picked up a collection of CDs that had an extremely dry version of this track. In fact, it's the first time I think I've ever heard this without echo or reverb.
From the CD "Rock 'n Roll Relix 1964-1965 - 18 Classic Hits" (1996), Possibly formerly a collection called "Lotta Rock" from an unknown year.
The first thing that grabbed me was the dry nature of this track. Reading the label, it is listed as a stereo cut. So, I'm not really sure how much this has been
monkeyed with for this collection.
As I've mentioned before, there are so many intricacies that define what the original, or true sound of a single should be, I think I'm going forward with what I
prefer to hear in my personal collection. I really like this version! And, I will probably replace the personal collection on my phone with this. I may find that it
sounds completely unacceptable in the car, so I may not.
Reading Mark's comments above, I'll have to dig into the definitions of "Underdubs."
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crapfromthepast
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Mono version
This was the hit version back in 1964.
The oldest CD I have with the mono version is Rhino's Wonder Women The History Of The Girl Group Sound (1986). It runs 2:47 here, and sounds quite nice. You can clearly hear the word "chapel" before the fade. The same analog transfer is used on:- Time-Life's Rock 'N' Roll Era Vol. 10 1964 (RE-2 reissue, not original)
- Rhino's Billboard Top R&B Hits 1964 (1989)
- Rhino's Best Of The Girl Groups (1990)
- Rhino's Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1964 (RE-1 reissue released in 1993; song not on original release)
- Time-Life's Heart Of Rock 'N' Roll Vol. 9 1964 (1996) - starts to fade toward end of the word "chapel"
The original 1987 release of Time-Life's Rock 'N' Roll Era Vol. 10 1964 is mono, but it sounds like mud here and fades out in the middle of the word "chapel". Avoid.
Stereo versions
I believe the oldest CD with a true stereo version of any type is DCC Compact Classics' multi-artist compilation Too Cute! (1995). This version is pretty dry, with almost no reverb at all. This mix is far too clean and dry to my ears, and doesn't sound consistent with 1964. It also runs out farther than any other version out there, running to 2:51. The bells from 2:00-2:04 are relatively low in pitch.
There's another stereo version on Varese's Dick Bartley On the Radio Vol. 3 (1998), which includes more reverb than the DCC version, and runs about 7 beats shorter than the DCC version. It has its left and right channels swapped, compared to the DCC disc. The bells from 2:00-2:04 are relatively low in pitch, like the DCC disc. The same analog transfer is used on:- Varese's Dick Bartley Rock And Roll Greatest Love Songs (1999)
- Varese's Totally Oldies Vol. 4 (2002)
There's a narrowed stereo mix on TM Century's track numbers 00000331 and 00010002 (small volume glitch near end). The TM Century versions have the high-pitched bells from 2:00-2:04, which is different from the Varese discs.
Fake stereo
These sound awful.
Avoid all of these:- Motown's Girl Groups: The Story Of A Sound (1987)
- Priority's Best Of 60s Mellow (1987)
- Roulette's American Rock N Roll Classics Vol. 4 (1988)
- K-Tel's Golden Girl Groups (1989)
- Good Music's 2-CD Rare Gold (1990)
Edited by crapfromthepast on 04 March 2024 at 9:31am
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Bounder's Bay
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| Posted: 04 March 2024 at 11:04pm | IP Logged
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The DCC "Too Cute" version was mixed from four track by Hoffman. It is an "underdub" in that it lacks some vocal overdubs from the
'finished' 'original'; see here:
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/too-cute-
dcc-oldies-c ompilation-cd.357878
2998097">https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/beach-classi cs-by-steve-on-dcc-a-chartbustin-appreciation-thread-track-b y-track.126344/page-11#post-
2998097
Edited by Bounder's Bay on 04 March 2024 at 11:06pm
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: DIXIE CUPS - CHAPEL OF LOVE
