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edtop40
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 2:45pm | IP Logged Quote edtop40

my commercial 45 for the animals song 'the house of the
rising sun' issued as mgm 13264 lists a run time on the
label as 2:58 but actually runs 3:01...the run out groove
info is 'K 13264 64-xy645'....i post this because the db
states that the run time of the 45 is 2:58....can anyone
else confirm their commercial 45's run time?

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jimct
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Posted: 11 May 2016 at 1:18pm | IP Logged Quote jimct

Ed, I own 3 commercial copies of the MGM 13264 45, and my cleanest
copy exactly mimics your deadwax info. The reason I never reported my
timing results during my 1964 db songs 45 research sweep (listed 2:58;
actual 3:00) a while back is that the :02 difference I found didn't meet
Pat's longstanding reporting policy of a minimum of a :03 second
difference.

But after 10 years + of being here on the board with you, good buddy, I
know very well that you're not at all a fan of this policy of Pat's, and have
always basically ignored it. To each his own, I say! As for me, I've always
tried to keep my personal opinion on the issue 100% out of it, and simply
abide by Pat's policy on Pat's forum.

Ed, I will grant you that my actual 45 timing *almost* reaches (3:01), but
both my old Post-It Note and new re-timing for you today both came out
to (3:00.8). Man, the word "truncated" doesn't seem nearly adequate
enough to describe this 45's fade. The first evidence I could hear for the
start of the fade was at the (2:56) mark. From there, the remaining (:04)
seconds of the fade is way too quick and severe, hurts my ears, and can
only be described as being extremely poorly done. But that's besides the
point.

Neither of my other two stock 45 copies (deadwax info of "K13264 64 XY
645-5" and "K13264 64 XY 645-8") quite got to the (3:01) mark,
either. They came out at (3:00.8) and (3:00.9), respectively.

Edited by jimct on 11 May 2016 at 1:24pm
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MMathews
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Posted: 11 May 2016 at 9:49pm | IP Logged Quote MMathews

Interesting. My own dub of our stock copy times at
exactly (2:59.5). I don't have the 45 handy, but I'll get
the deadwax# at work tomorrow.

Jim, I thought that :03 sec policy was in regard to
database entries, not the chat board. I don't recall
clearly tho, it's been years!

I feel ya about this 45's abrupt fade, but for me that's
great as compared to the first 2 edits. Those hurt my
ears much worse.
Since this was such a monster hit, I'd assume there were
several pressings of this during its chart run and I'll
bet there are small differences in pitch causing these
slight time differences.

MM
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jimct
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Posted: 11 May 2016 at 10:18pm | IP Logged Quote jimct

Yes, Mark, you're 100% correct about the :03 second policy being in
regard to db entries, not the chat board. But the primary reason I either
start or respond to existing threads with timing details is because I've
noticed that Pat's db has no current timing notation attached to it, and I
have discovered that my copy's listed/actual timing details meet his :03
reporting criteria. For many years Pat has kindly added my details to his
db.

While there are surely some forum readers that have interest in :01 & :02
second L/A differences, I know others who have no interest in them at all.
Therefore, I've always been mindful of not "inundating" the forum with the
very large # of these smaller time differences - especially if Pat isn't going
to note the info in his db.

That was my reason for bringing that point up in the first place, in
response to Ed. So he would know why I hadn't started a song thread for it
years ago.
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Jody Thornton
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Posted: 01 January 2018 at 8:06pm | IP Logged Quote Jody Thornton

MMathews wrote:
Interesting. My own dub of our stock copy times at
exactly (2:59.5). I don't have the 45 handy, but I'll get
the deadwax# at work tomorrow.

Jim, I thought that :03 sec policy was in regard to
database entries, not the chat board. I don't recall
clearly tho, it's been years!

I feel ya about this 45's abrupt fade, but for me that's
great as compared to the first 2 edits. Those hurt my
ears much worse.
Since this was such a monster hit, I'd assume there were
several pressings of this during its chart run and I'll
bet there are small differences in pitch causing these
slight time differences.

MM


So wait for just a sec. At this moment, I'm listening to that old "24 Electryfying Hits" compilation LP from 1970, which has an abrupt sounding edit of this song on it. Is that edit for real?

The intro, keyboard solo and the ending all have edits. And there appears to be some heavy wow and flutter on the tape master.


***** Edit ****

I just went and listened to a YouTube vid of the 45-rpm disc. Ouch - that's awful, but still a different edit than I just listened to on the turntable.

House of the Rising Sun (Edited)

Edited by Jody Thornton on 01 January 2018 at 10:57pm


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KentT
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Posted: 03 February 2018 at 6:47am | IP Logged Quote KentT

This tune in the USA version was edited so severely, I
suspect a Stihl Farm Boss Chainsaw was used. When that
British Hits comp on MGM was issued, hearing the full
version was a major epiphany.

Edited by KentT on 03 February 2018 at 6:48am


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Tom Daly
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 6:10pm | IP Logged Quote Tom Daly

Having worked in the industry, playing time of analog recordings can vary widely, especially when we're talking about the drive systems that were used in analog tape machines of the day with A/C synchronous motors and variations in line frequency. Add to the mix that "House of the Rising Sun" was recorded in the UK on 50 Hz tape machines. The UK tapes wouldn't play at exactly the same speed on US decks due to our use of 60 Hz synchronous motors. There would always be tiny variations, even between two decks of the same make and model in the same country! Given that, and that synchronous A/C motors were also what was common until Japanese turntables, both belt and direct drive switched to using DC servo controlled motors and eventually quartz locked PLL drive systems in the best turntables, any record would play for one length on one turntable and be off by a few seconds on another. Today, playing times are generally calculated by the time of a song's file used to make a CD master, including the silence before and after the song. On anything I've ever mastered, take the length of the entire track, subtract :03 and you have the exact playing time of the recording. A :03 difference between label time and actual playing time is inconsequential to most of us, however if you REALLY want to discuss label errors, I recommend starting with the Philles single of "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin', which most certainly does NOT play for 3:15!

Edited by Tom Daly on 06 March 2018 at 6:12pm
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Edoz
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Posted: 16 January 2021 at 12:45pm | IP Logged Quote Edoz

If all of the versions of HOTRS on CD are the full length album version and the edited US single is not available on CD, then why are the appearances listed in Pat's database not flagged as "album version?"
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aaronk
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Posted: 16 January 2021 at 2:39pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

I think those were labeled in the database at one point, so I’m not sure
why Pat removed them. To clarify, though, the original vinyl LP and 45
are the same, and both have the edited version. The longer version is
technically originally from the Greatest Hits LP.

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Edoz
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Posted: 16 January 2021 at 4:17pm | IP Logged Quote Edoz

yes...that's so (as you know).

Even though the US edit is crappy, it would be nice to have it on at least one CD reissue for history's sake.
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AndrewChouffi
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Posted: 16 January 2021 at 5:55pm | IP Logged Quote AndrewChouffi

Yes, all I knew was the US edit; as a
young kid it was a great 3 minute
record. A year or so later I rifled
through my cousin's albums and noticed
some Mickie Most various artists LP
with containing the "original uncut
version" of "Rising Sun" - My mind was
totally blown as it it was the first
time I had ever heard it!

Andy
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Pat Downey
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Posted: 16 January 2021 at 7:56pm | IP Logged Quote Pat Downey

Regarding the "LP version" of House Of The Rising Sun, the
parent LP in the US for this song was titled "The Animals"
and on that LP the song runs (3:00) just like the 45 so
there is no 45 or LP designation. As Aaron has pointed
out, the longer version first appeared on the Animals
Greatest Hits vinyl LP and in my opinion should not be
considered an LP version. That information is included in
the database under the song title description.
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Edoz
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Posted: 17 January 2021 at 12:19pm | IP Logged Quote Edoz

Thanks, Pat.
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 17 January 2021 at 5:50pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Pat is correct about The Animals being the U.S. parent LP, and I bring this up merely as a point of clarification: our late friend Gary Mack pointed out in an unrelated 2010 thread that the first U.S. appearance of the unedited "House Of The Rising Sun" came five months prior to its inclusion on MGM's 1966 The Best Of The Animals LP (E/SE-4324):

Gary Mack wrote:
Actually, the full version appeared months earlier (late 1965) on an MGM VA collection: E/SE-4306 - Mickie Most Presents British Go-Go.


This is the same LP Andy was referring to above, with its "original uncut version" wording. A couple of commenters on the Mickie Most album's discogs listing claim that the record actually plays the 3:00 single version, but I have a copy of the mono edition and can verify that it does play the full 4:29 version, as stated on the album cover and the record label.
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aaronk
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Posted: 17 January 2021 at 6:07pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

Excellent info, John! Thanks!

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KentT
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Posted: 22 January 2021 at 11:36am | IP Logged Quote KentT

Yah Shure wrote:
Pat is correct about The
Animals
being the U.S. parent LP, and I bring this
up merely as a point of clarification: our late friend
Gary Mack pointed out in an unrelated 2010 thread that
the first U.S. appearance of the unedited "House Of The
Rising Sun" came five months prior to its inclusion on
MGM's 1966 The Best Of The Animals LP (E/SE-
4324):

Gary Mack wrote:
Actually, the full version appeared
months earlier (late 1965) on an MGM VA collection:
E/SE-4306 - Mickie Most Presents British Go-Go.


This is the same LP Andy was referring to above, with
its "original uncut version" wording. A couple of
commenters on the Mickie Most album's discogs listing
claim that the record actually plays the 3:00 single
version, but I have a copy of the mono edition and can
verify that it does play the full 4:29 version, as
stated on the album cover and the record label.


Note too, very soon after the MGM version of Mickie Most
Presents British Go-Go, the LP was reissued on MGM's
Metro Budget Label, as M/MS 577 released in 1966. The
Metro LP is much more common than the MGM LP of same.


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