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80smusicfreak
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Posted: 15 August 2012 at 5:49pm | IP Logged Quote 80smusicfreak

First, a belated "kudos" to you, Todd, for compiling these mono/stereo 45 lists back in January/February. Although I don't collect many 45s, I do find the info quite interesting, especially since the later years cross well into the period of music that I like to collect...

I know I haven't chimed in in a while, but I recently did business w/ a seller on eBay who I noticed has a fair number of pre-1970 U.S. stock 45s for sale/auction in STEREO, and I immediately recalled this board and your lists. In fact, he has nearly 30 currently listed; a few are "Buy It Now", but most are up for auction (starting at less than $10), and end in about six days (on Tuesday the 21st). There must be some rarities here, so for you "45 collectors" :-), here's a chronological list of what he has; his user i.d. is "former-radio-dj", and he's supplied excellent scans of both sides of all of the records:

top 40 hits (inc. in Pat's database):

1958: "(All of a Sudden) My Heart Sings" - PAUL ANKA (ABC-PARAMOUNT 9987) (#15 Billboard/#12 Cash Box)

1959: "Lonely Boy" - PAUL ANKA (ABC-PARAMOUNT 10,022) (#1 Billboard/#1 Cash Box)

1959: "Everybody Likes to Cha Cha Cha" - SAM COOKE (KEEN 2018) (#31 Billboard/#29 Cash Box)

1959: "Only Sixteen" - SAM COOKE (KEEN 2022) (#28 Billboard/#32 Cash Box)

1959: "Kookie, Kookie (Lend Me Your Comb)" w/ PS - EDWARD BYRNES & CONNIE STEVENS (WARNER BROS. 5047) (#4 Billboard/#3 Cash Box)

1959: "Where Were You (On Our Wedding Day)?" - LLOYD PRICE (ABC-PARAMOUNT 9997) (#23 Billboard/#19 Cash Box)

1959: "Come into My Heart" - LLOYD PRICE (ABC-PARAMOUNT 10,062) (#20 Billboard/#16 Cash Box)

1959: "Quiet Village" - MARTIN DENNY (LIBERTY 77162) (#4 Billboard/#3 Cash Box)

1959: "Turn Me Loose" - FABIAN (CHANCELLOR 1033) (#9 Billboard/#8 Cash Box)

1959: "Come On and Get Me" - FABIAN (CHANCELLOR 1041) (#29 Billboard/#34 Cash Box)

1959: "Hound Dog Man" w/ PS - FABIAN (CHANCELLOR 1044) (#9 Billboard/#11 Cash Box)

1959: "Bobby Sox to Stockings" - FRANKIE AVALON (CHANCELLOR 1036) (#8 Billboard/#7 Cash Box)

1959: "The Battle of Kookamonga" - HOMER AND JETHRO (RCA VICTOR 7585) (#14 Billboard/#16 Cash Box)

1959: "Ring-a-Ling-a-Lario" - JIMMIE RODGERS (ROULETTE 4158) (#32 Billboard/#38 Cash Box)

1959: "Tucumcari" - JIMMIE RODGERS (ROULETTE 4191) (#32 Billboard/#34 Cash Box)

1969: "Gitarzan" - RAY STEVENS (MONUMENT 1131) (#8 Billboard/#7 Cash Box)



non-top 40 hits (not in Pat's database):

1958: "Love Makes the World Go 'Round" - PERRY COMO (RCA VICTOR 7353) (#33 Billboard/#46 Cash Box)

1959: "Nola" - THE MORGAN BROTHERS (MGM 50,116) (#50 Billboard/#44 Cash Box)

1959: "You Don't Know Girls" - KATHY LINDEN (FELSTED 8587) (#92 Billboard/A-side #84 Cash Box)

1959: "A Prayer and a Juke Box" - LITTLE ANTHONY & THE IMPERIALS (END 1047) (#81 Billboard/#71 Cash Box)

1959: "The Madison" - BILL DOGGETT (KING 5204) (DNC Billboard/DNC Cash Box)

1960: "Delia Gone" - PAT BOONE (DOT 226) (#66 Billboard/#86 Cash Box)

1960: "Everyday" - DELLA REESE (RCA VICTOR 7750) (DNC Billboard/#82 Cash Box)

1962: "Rosie, Why Do You Wear My Ring" - KENNY DINO (MUSICOR 1015) (DNC Billboard/DNC Cash Box)

1962: "Joey Baby" - ANITA (KERR) AND TH' SO-AND-SO'S (RCA VICTOR 7974) (#91 Billboard/DNC Cash Box)

1963: "A Stranger in Your Town" - THE SHACKLEFORDS (MERCURY 72112) (#70 Billboard/#71 Cash Box)

1964: "Hey-Da-Da-Dow" - THE DOLPHINS (FRATERNITY 937) (#69 Billboard/#69 Cash Box)

Some B-sides of the above 45s charted as well, but I only gave the peak positions of the A-sides (DNC = "did not chart"). I don't know if ALL copies of the commercial pressings of these 45s were stereo, but clearly some weren't, as I noticed several of the above have different catalog nos. (or prefixes) vs. their mono counterparts. I do know that the stereo 45 of "Gitarzan" is rare, and has been discussed on this board a couple of times, so if you've been looking for one, now's your chance. :-) I have no intention of buying or bidding on any of these myself, but thought there would probably be some folks here who would, and perhaps start a supplement of earlier hits to your list, Todd. It appears that 1959 was THE year that the record labels made their first serious attempt at pushing stereo 45s; you may want to try compiling a list of the top 40 hits from that year, too - surely the results would top the figure of 3.1% that you came up w/ for 1968, but probably not the 19.1% for 1969...
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 15 August 2012 at 6:35pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

80smusicfreak wrote:
I recently did business w/ a seller on eBay who I noticed has a fair number of pre-1970 U.S. stock 45s for sale/auction in STEREO...

1964: "Hey-Da-Da-Dow" - THE DOLPHINS (FRATERNITY 937) (#69 Billboard/#69 Cash Box)


Whoops. "Former-radio-dj" claims his copy of "Hey-Da-Da-Dow" is both "rare" and "extremely rare" (never mind that there are several dozen other copies available from other eBay sellers) but one thing it is not is stereo. "Hey-Da-Da-Dow" went top-five on both of the Minneapolis-St. Paul top 40 stations, and all three commercial 45 copies I have are in extremely common mono.

His own scan proves the point: the Fraternity 45 was pressed by RCA, and the "M" in the RK5M-6093 matrix number on the label indicates a mono recording.

Make sure the goods are what the seller claims them to be. Is it truly stereo? Is it rare, medium-rare or well-done? :)    

Edited by Yah Shure on 15 August 2012 at 6:39pm
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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 15 August 2012 at 6:46pm | IP Logged Quote Todd Ireland

80smusicfreak wrote:
It appears that 1959 was THE year that the record labels made their first serious attempt at pushing stereo 45s; you may want to try compiling a list of the top 40 hits from that year, too - surely the results would top the figure of 3.1% that you came up w/ for 1968, but probably not the 19.1% for 1969...


You're correct that a limited number of 45 pressings were issued in stereo in 1959, but I'm pretty certain every Top 40 hit on commercial 45 prior to 1968 was primarily made available in mono. If I'm wrong, I hope someone will set the record straight.

Since I consider the mono mixes to be the "official" 45 releases in years like 1959, I'm not really interested in compiling such a stereo 45 list at this time. But if anyone else would like to volunteer to undertake the project, then by all means have at it!

Edited by Todd Ireland on 15 August 2012 at 6:49pm
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 15 August 2012 at 7:13pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Todd Ireland wrote:
You're correct that a limited number of 45 pressings were issued in stereo in 1959, but I'm pretty certain every Top 40 hit on commercial 45 prior to 1968 was primarily made available in mono.


This is correct. Every stereo 45 offered during that first wave had a mono counterpart. A typical monaural phonograph cartridge from 1959 would have shredded a stereo record on its first play.

Stereo 45s also cost more at retail than the mono copies, and the labels weren't keen on blowing off young consumers who often only had so much allowance to spend on records.

Another reason for keeping the mono 45s the "official" 45s was that many of the stereo 45s from that era were re-recordings, done specifically for the stereo single after the original mono recording had become a hit.
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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 15 August 2012 at 7:50pm | IP Logged Quote Todd Ireland

Thanks, I appreciate the clarification, Yah Shure.
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Posted: 16 August 2012 at 1:05am | IP Logged Quote TomDiehl1

I looked at that sellers ended auctions and my jaw dropped right open. First, he had a copy of the stereo 45 of Souvenirs by Barbara Evans on RCA, which I've found to be extremely elusive...last time I saw one up for sale I lost out a bid much higher than this one ended at. I've since acquired that one in stereo on a boot cd via ebay.... second, I see he had sold a stereo 45 of Cuckoo Girl by Chico Holiday (also on RCA) which I had no idea even existed (if anyone has this in stereo please let me know).

While I'm on the topic of obscure RCA singles in stereo, the biggest stereo want on my list may or may not have been issued on a stereo 45. I have stereo 45s by the Ames Brothers from before AND after the release of A Happy Pair b/w Carnival (RCA 47-7742 on the mono 45) but I have never heard of a stereo 45 existing for this release... if anyone has it I am interested in acquiring either the actual stereo 45 or dubs of the stereo 45. There are other later singles of theirs on RCA that may or may not have had stereo issues but right now this has been the one I have most wanted to acquire.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 at 5:52am | IP Logged Quote KentT

The main audience for Stereo 45 singles pre-1968 was jukebox operators. Occasionally ordinary people bought them specially ordered. They cost extra and weren't playable on mono phonographs unless they were modified for Stereo record playback. Usually involved changing cartridge and lowering tracking weight to 5 grams or less. P.S. These early Stereo 45 singles were pressed in very tiny numbers compared to their mono counterparts. Often one pressing run of 5,000-7,500 or so was it.

Edited by KentT on 16 August 2012 at 5:54am


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Hykker
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Posted: 16 August 2012 at 5:58am | IP Logged Quote Hykker


Yah Shure wrote:

Whoops. "Former-radio-dj" claims his copy of "Hey-Da-Da-Dow" is both "rare" and "extremely rare" (never mind that there are several dozen other copies available from other eBay sellers) but one thing it is not is stereo.   


I forget his handle, but there is one seller on Gemm that lists almost everything he sells as being "rare", even extrememly common stuff.


Yah Shure wrote:

This is correct. Every stereo 45 offered during that first wave had a mono counterpart. A typical monaural phonograph cartridge from 1959 would have shredded a stereo record on its first play.

Stereo 45s also cost more at retail than the mono copies, and the labels weren't keen on blowing off young consumers who often only had so much allowance to spend on records.



I was only 8 years old in 1959 and not really buying many records yet, but it's my understanding that stereo singles were not widely available back then...only certain stores carried them.

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 16 August 2012 at 10:31am | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Hykker wrote:
I forget his handle, but there is one seller on Gemm that lists almost everything he sells as being "rare", even extrememly common stuff.


I laughed out loud when I ran across someone who'd posted Kiss' "Detroit City Rock" on Napster as the "very rare 45 version." That typical eBay "everything is rare" tactic struck me as being particularly preposterous when used within the context of a file sharing site. It wasn't going to stay "very rare" for long!

So I needle-dropped one of my original "DCR" A-side promo 45s, then posted it as the "very common 45 version." :)

Hykker wrote:
I was only 8 years old in 1959 and not really buying many records yet, but it's my understanding that stereo singles were not widely available back then...only certain stores carried them.


Mom never told me I had an 8-year-old twin brother in 1959. Can I still trade in my slightly-older 1950 model? :) My sibs and I had begun buying 45s in 1957 and I never recall seeing any stereo singles in our local record emporium. Then again, the 45s were all kept behind the counter and you had to ask for them by title or artist. And that tall counter seemed as imposing as the Empire State Building to an 8-year-old.   
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Posted: 22 July 2016 at 8:32am | IP Logged Quote Edoz

Back to 1968: In looking at The Rascals singles, I see that "It's Wonderful" (#2463) is a mono commercial single, followed by "A Beautiful Morning" (#2493)" in stereo, and then "People Got To Be Free" (#2537) which is back to mono.

The mono releases continue until "See" (#2634) which is in stereo.

The master numbers of the A-sides after ABM are higher so why the anomaly of it being in stereo and singles after it being in mono?

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Posted: 22 July 2016 at 8:37am | IP Logged Quote Edoz

More on 1968 & ABM: The single label reads "Compatible Mono & Stereo:" in other words Atlantic's CSG processing of mono masters. Could it be that ABM is not, in fact, true stereo but faux?
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 22 July 2016 at 11:45am | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Edoz wrote:
More on 1968 & ABM: The single label reads "Compatible Mono & Stereo:" in other words Atlantic's CSG processing of mono masters. Could it be that ABM is not, in fact, true stereo but faux?


Welcome to the non-lurking side of the board, Edoz!

The bolded part of your above statement is incorrect. The key is in the exact wording on the label. Some CSG-processed Atlantic stock 45s, such as #2493, ABM ("Anti-Ballistic Missile"?) state "Compatible Mono & Stereo." Others, such as #2676 ("Suite: Judy Blue Eyes") say "CSG Processed Mono Master."

The former is most definitely true stereo on my stock 45; the latter is definitely mono. The Rascals 45 is basically the true stereo mix, except that the phase of one of the channels was shifted by 90 degrees. In spite of the wonky-sounding result (when played back in stereo), the mix remains in true stereo.

CSN's "SJBE" followed the same process, with one additional step: the final, phase-shifted stereo result was then summed to mono. That's where they came up with the so-called "CSG processed mono master" reference. It does not mean that the record was sourced from a dedicated mono mix. It was simply a way for them to cut a balanced-sounding mix for mono AM radio - sourced from the true stereo mix - without the added time and expense of producing a dedicated mono mix.

So why bother, you ask? Wouldn't playing back a CSG-processed stereo 45 in mono yield the same result as the "CSG-processed mono master"? Pretty much, yes. The advantage in folding the CSG mix down to mono was that it could be cut to disc at a slightly louder volume than a similar stereo counterpart. Given Judy Blue Eyes' 4:35 stated length, its comparatively low volume was still higher than it would have been, had they left it in stereo and issued it as "Compatible Mono & Stereo."

The record labels were just beginning to dip their collective toes into the commercial stereo 45 marketplace at the time, hence the seemingly scattershot approach, where a few stock stereo 45s were released here and there, while the vast majority of the pool remained mono. Buddah issued several "Dual 45" stereo stocks, then largely returned to mono for awhile. Columbia let a few stereo stock 45s out of the gate in early 1970 before doing so on a wider basis. Ditto with many other companies. Even the Atlantic family continued to issue dedicated mono mixes on the majority of its 45s.

Better that they release a few guinea pigs first to determine full end-user compatibility than to dive into it whole hog and then wind up with loud complaints from the jukebox industry, one of the largest buyers of commercial 45s. At the time, not all jukeboxes were equipped to play the stereo 33 1/3 RPM 7-inch EPs/Little LPs produced exclusively for that industry.

Another thing to consider is that dedicated mono mixes were still being done for 45s. If it was determined that the mono single mix of a given title possessed the exact magic they were looking for, it would make sense for the commercial 45 to be issued in mono, even though the preceding single for that particular artist or group may have been issued in stereo.

It was a transitional period, so there were no hard and fast rules. Above all else, we're talking about the American record industry, where plenty of things didn't seem to make sense. ;)    

   

Edited by Yah Shure on 22 July 2016 at 11:54am
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The Hits Man
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Posted: 22 July 2016 at 12:14pm | IP Logged Quote The Hits Man

Thanks for that post, Yah Shure!

Now, I have a question for Todd (and, BTW, thanks for
your exhaustive, invaluable work):

Brown, James - "Say It Loud - I'm Black and I'm Proud
(Part 1)" (mono and stereo)


Is the mono 45 a foldover of the stereo mix? For some
reason, the stereo mix sounds different than what I
remember the 45 to have been. In the next few days, I
will search for that mono 45.

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Posted: 22 July 2016 at 5:35pm | IP Logged Quote Edoz

Thanks, Yah Sure!

BTW: "ABM" = A Beautiful Morning. Got carried away with my typing shorthand.
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 22 July 2016 at 8:02pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Edoz wrote:
BTW: "ABM" = A Beautiful Morning. Got carried away with my typing shorthand.


No problem! Since you'd typed out the full title in your initial post, I did figure it out. And besides, I don't have an Atlantic stock 45 called "Anti-Ballistic Missile" that I'm aware of. ;)

But to be honest, song title acronyms often do throw me for an initial loop, particularly if the full title isn't mentioned first. On another forum that leans heavily classic album rock, sometimes the initial posts only include an acronym, with the OP presuming everyone reading knows what title or artist it's supposed to represent. It took awhile, but I finally learned that AWSOP refers to "A Wider Spade Of Pail." ;)

By the way, you mentioned the Rascals' "See" 45 being in stereo. The label on the "See" stock 45 simply says "Stereo Master." The DJ 45 states "Mono Master" on both the "A" and "Away Away" B-side. In this case, the stereo stock 45 is true stereo, with no CSG processing at all.

The "See" DJ 45 is neither a CSG-processed fold-down of the stereo version, nor a straight fold-down of the stereo mix. It's an actual dedicated mono mix, with the vocals mixed WAAAY upfront, so shrill that they curl one's toes and make one's ears bleed. On the surface, this might have been one case where a CSG "Compatible Mono & Stereo" 45 would have been a better option, but aside from the shrillness of the vocals, the dedicated mono DJ 45 mix did a better job of cutting through the AM environment, as it was designed to do.

Atlantic made the right call in releasing "See" in stereo commercially and in a dedicated mono mix to radio. But that decison also proved that they still weren't 100% sold on Haeco-CSG technology, even into 1969.
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 22 July 2016 at 8:27pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

The Hits Man wrote:
In the next few days, I
will search for that mono 45.


Grant, do you mean your "Say It Loud" 45 is mono, or did you mean that you were going to hunt down a mono 45? The reason I ask is because when the subject of this 45 originally arose on the "stereo vs. mono 45s" thread over five years ago, you'd said, and I quote: "Mine's stereo."

My 45 is mono, so I just compared it with the stereo "Part 1" on the 20 All Time Greatest Hits! Polydor CD. To answer your question, it does sound like the mono 45 is a fold of the stereo mix.

Which is too bad, in a way: the "I'm black and I'm proud" responses to JB's "say it loud" exhortations are all panned right on the stereo mix, so when they're summed to mono, they're not as loud on the mono 45 as they could have been, had it been a dedicated mono mix!
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The Hits Man
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Posted: 23 July 2016 at 10:15am | IP Logged Quote The Hits Man

I mean that I'll have to look for a mono 45.

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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 10:06am | IP Logged Quote The Hits Man

Can anyone here confirm the exact timing on the mono 45 of
Sergio Mendes & Brazil '66 "Fool On The Hill"?

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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:48pm | IP Logged Quote Hykker

Yah Shure wrote:

So why bother, you ask? Wouldn't playing back a CSG-
processed stereo 45 in mono yield the same result as the
"CSG-processed mono master"? Pretty much, yes. The
advantage in folding the CSG mix down to mono was that it
could be cut to disc at a slightly louder volume than a
similar stereo counterpart. Given Judy Blue Eyes' 4:35
stated length, its comparatively low volume was still
higher than it would have been, had they left it in
stereo and issued it as "Compatible Mono & Stereo."


Thickening the plot somewhat, my promo of SJBE is double-
A stereo on both sides. No mention of CSG processing.
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Bill Cahill
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 4:34pm | IP Logged Quote Bill Cahill

My understanding of the CSG Processor is that it had a stereo output and a mono output. I don't know if the mono
output would give you a different result than summing a CSG stereo tape, but I believe if you wanted CSG processed
mono, you'd use that mono output. But I wasn't there when these songs were mastered so I don't know for sure.

Edited by Bill Cahill on 05 January 2018 at 4:34pm
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