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TomDiehl1
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Posted: 30 May 2017 at 4:29pm | IP Logged Quote TomDiehl1

Yah Shure, would you be able to send me a
needledrop of your repro 45?

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 30 May 2017 at 6:03pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

CJ: Only your third post after almost ten years?? C'mon. ;)

Yes, it was during the "Coma Country" years. I did PM drive from '81-'84, leaving about two months after Storz sold the station, crossing the street briefly to KOMA's former top-40 nemesis, WKY, then returning home to WDGY shortly after Storz had sold it, too. I'd listened to KOMA in the Twin Cites growing up, so was well aware of its huge nighttime coverage, but my first night on the air was still surprising, getting a call from Chihuahua, followed by another from Winnipeg. Sure beat the 10-mile nighttime range of my previous station! Fellow board member Bwci Bo sent me a brief '90s aircheck he recorded of KOMA on his family's living room stereo in his New Zealand hometown. KOMA was an incredibly fun place to work.

Thanks for the BSN update; I used to lurk over there years ago. As far as the trumpet ending getting airplay, Capitol let that cat out of the bag with the Rarities LP, which, of course, would have been released with Apple's blessing. One of my former KOMA PDs owns a station in Bloomsburg, PA and the Rarities cut has been his de facto airplay version for over fifteen years.

With all the various permutations of Beatles product that's been hitting the market during the digital era, I can't see where Apple would have an issue with remix 11 being a part of the crowd; it's certainly just as valid as all the other work-in-progress outtakes. The only apparent difference, other than that the tape appears to be gone, is that it received airplay in two North American countries for a couple of weeks fifty years ago. Assuming the trumpet ending itself might be the crux of the problem, would they not have blocked the similar ending on the Anthology series?

I also think that if Apple were that reluctant to have RM 11 reappear, they would have simply nixed it. That, to me, would have been far preferable than including such an astoundingly inferior representation on nothing less than the biggest showcase yet for a truly milestone album. It sticks out like the amateurish sore thumb that it is.

Why they didn't consult the collector community first is anybody's guess. If they were going for authenticity (which I don't believe was the case), they could have put out the call for an actual aircheck of the promo 45 being played on the air in 1967 - maybe even on KOMA - and the AM quality would have made for a neat historical footnote to the set, providing the listener with a micro-glimpse of what US or Canadian top-40 radio sounded like at the time "Penny Lane" first hit the airwaves. Barring that, it wouldn't have been that difficult to find a DJ to replicate the experience. But that'll probably have to wait until the 51st Anniversary Super-Duper Deluxer Edition.

In the meantime, we're all left scratching our collective heads on one of the stranger technical calls in Pepperland.
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KentT
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 6:10pm | IP Logged Quote KentT

The UK EMI master for the long promo single of "Penny Lane"
is no longer extant, vanished in 1972. So, unless there is
the US Capitol Dub master tape in the Capitol vaults, it's
no longer extant.

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Brian W.
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Posted: 11 July 2017 at 2:49pm | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

KentT wrote:
The UK EMI master for the long promo single
of "Penny Lane"
is no longer extant, vanished in 1972. So, unless there is
the US Capitol Dub master tape in the Capitol vaults, it's
no longer extant.


Where did you hear that, Kent?
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EdisonLite
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Posted: 12 July 2017 at 11:16am | IP Logged Quote EdisonLite

I know there's several incarnations of the 2017 reissue of "Sgt. Pepper". I saw a 2 CD version in Target. It had 2 versions of "Penny Lane" (though if I recall, one was an instrumental.) Did the other have the trumpet solo ending?

If not, what are the other versions of this box set that have it? I guess there are 4-6 renditions, and I think the ones with the most CDs list for about $150.
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 12 July 2017 at 12:34pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Gordon. the Capitol US promo 45 (with the trumpet ending) is only included on the Super Deluxe Edition, which has 4 CDs, plus blu-ray and DVD discs.

And as these things often go, that's the most expensive option.
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KentT
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Posted: 17 September 2017 at 8:41am | IP Logged Quote KentT

Brian W. wrote:
KentT wrote:
The UK EMI master for
the long promo single
of "Penny Lane"
is no longer extant, vanished in 1972. So, unless there
is
the US Capitol Dub master tape in the Capitol vaults,
it's
no longer extant.


Where did you hear that, Kent?


The Steve Hoffman Forums on the anticipatory thread for
the Sgt. Peppers Anniversary set. A photo of the tape
legend explained the piccolo ending's demise and the
destruction date. Which I am quoting "Scrapped September
1971" This is EMI's own tape box legend being quoted
here.

Edited by KentT on 17 September 2017 at 8:44am


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Brian W.
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Posted: 17 September 2017 at 2:16pm | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

By God, you're right, Kent! The notation says, "American
dead version with [outro?] trumpet scrapped Sept. 1971."

(Can't upload the photo because Photobucket now makes you
pay to allow third party hosting and this website doesn't
allow direct upload of images. But just search in Google
Images for: "penny lane" "scrapped" "sept. 1971" and you'll
see the picture of the log entry.)

Edited by Brian W. on 17 September 2017 at 2:19pm
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EdisonLite
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Posted: 26 September 2017 at 12:10pm | IP Logged Quote EdisonLite

So I take it then that this mean the "outro trumpet" mix of "Penny Lane" has never appeared on CD from master tape? I recall this trumpet ending version is supposedly only on the 6-CD version of the many incarnations of the recently released deluxe version of "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band"? I've been meaning to ask ... does the 6-CD version contain the trumpet ending we've heard from the "Rarities" LP of the early '80s? and is it taken from vinyl?
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Brian W.
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Posted: 26 September 2017 at 12:25pm | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

EdisonLite wrote:
So I take it then that this mean the
"outro trumpet" mix of "Penny Lane" has never appeared on
CD from master tape? I recall this trumpet ending version
is supposedly only on the 6-CD version of the many
incarnations of the recently released deluxe version of
"Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band"? I've been
meaning to ask ... does the 6-CD version contain the
trumpet ending we've heard from the "Rarities" LP of the
early '80s? and is it taken from vinyl?


Unfortunately, it is taken from bad vinyl, as discussed
one page back:

Brian W. wrote:
The Beatles "Sgt. Pepper" box is quite a
package, but
sadly, "Penny Lane" is taken from a very poor shape 45.
Unbelievable. I guess they can't find the master tape.
Aaron's recreation remains the best way to hear it.


Yah Shure wrote:
Brian W. wrote:
"Penny Lane" is taken
from a very poor shape 45. Unbelievable. I guess they
can't find the master tape. Aaron's recreation remains
the best way to hear it.


Wow. It's riddled with dropouts and...

Hmmm.... hang on....

[Digs out the counterfeit promo 45 he bought in 1982 and
puts it on the turntable]

Oh, good lord. They actually sourced this track from the
early '80s counterfeit promo 45! Those dropouts are in
the left channel of the fake 45; the level of the right
channel drops for a spell. The original promo 45 was
mono, of course, but the poor quality tape transfer on
the fake copy left a lot to be desired.

What Capitol did for the SD Edition was to copy the left
channel of the counterfeit 45 to both channels and kick
up the high end a smidgen. That tick near the end of the
fade is exactly where it is on the counterfeit. The wave
form of the SD Edition track also matches the fake.

For an expensive, super deluxe edition of one of the
greatest albums of all time, this is the best they
could do? Disgraceful.

At least Dr. Ebbetts used a mint Remix 11 U.S. promo 45
years ago, and it beats the pants off of this sorry
"official" needledrop of a counterfeit needledrop. If
Capitol was going to have to depend on an unofficial
source, they sure picked the wrong one.

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EdisonLite
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 12:27pm | IP Logged Quote EdisonLite

How strange they'd pull the trumpet ending of "Penny Lane" (alternate) from a bootleg, when they could have pulled it from the easy-to-find legit LP "Rarities".

Edited by EdisonLite on 28 September 2017 at 12:28pm
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EdisonLite
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 12:30pm | IP Logged Quote EdisonLite

BTW, has the "Rarities" album ever been released on CD? anywhere in the world? And if the master for "Penny Lane" wasn't pulled from another vinyl for that vinyl release, then I'd think the master tape of "Rarities" would contain a tape source of that version of "Penny Lane"? However, if the tape was truly lost in the early '70s, then the early '80s release of "Rarities" would contain a vinyl copy transferred to vinyl.
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Brian W.
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 12:46pm | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

EdisonLite wrote:
BTW, has the "Rarities" album ever been
released on CD? anywhere in the world? And if the master
for "Penny Lane" wasn't pulled from another vinyl for that
vinyl release, then I'd think the master tape of "Rarities"
would contain a tape source of that version of "Penny
Lane"? However, if the tape was truly lost in the early
'70s, then the early '80s release of "Rarities" would
contain a vinyl copy transferred to vinyl.


No, it hasn't, but the "Rarities" version is simply the
original stereo mix with the mono trumpet ending tacked on
from the promo 45, I've read.
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MMathews
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 2:19pm | IP Logged Quote MMathews

Brian W. wrote:
EdisonLite wrote:
BTW, has the "Rarities" album ever been
released on CD? anywhere in the world? And if the master
for "Penny Lane" wasn't pulled from another vinyl for that
vinyl release, then I'd think the master tape of "Rarities"
would contain a tape source of that version of "Penny
Lane"? However, if the tape was truly lost in the early
'70s, then the early '80s release of "Rarities" would
contain a vinyl copy transferred to vinyl.


No, it hasn't, but the "Rarities" version is simply the
original stereo mix with the mono trumpet ending tacked on
from the promo 45, I've read.


I read that too, but I was always suspicious of that claim. On "Rarities" the trumpet ending was in stereo and sounded perfect just like the rest of the song. Had they really tacked that on from vinyl in the early 80s, I'd fully expect to hear the tone change at that spot. A click, some rumble...any vinyl clue but no, it sounds clean and seamless to my ears. So if that came from vinyl, they did a rather amazing job.

I also would be amazed if Capitol or EMI somehow lost the LP master for "Rarities."
That album in its original form should have been included in the "Capitol Versions" reissues.
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aaronk
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 2:32pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

I agree with Mark. I've heard the Rarities version, and there's no noticeable tacked-on ending. The ending is seamless and in stereo.

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Brian W.
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 6:16pm | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

Good to know!
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aaronk
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 8:39pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

Nevertheless, the original mono master very well may have been dumped in the early '70s, like KenT mentioned. The Rarities version might have been a totally new mix from the multi-tracks, I suppose, or a stereo version that had been sitting in the vaults.

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EdisonLite
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 9:50pm | IP Logged Quote EdisonLite

aaronk wrote:
The Rarities version might have been a totally new mix from the multi-tracks, I suppose, or a stereo version that had been sitting in the vaults.


But I'd guess that someone here in this chatroom has already A-B'd the Rarities "Penny Lane" and the common one and noticed if it's a new stereo mix from the multi's, or if it matches up until the trumpet end piece comes in. I could be wrong - but has anyone A-B'd those 2 versions?
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aaronk
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 10:35pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

I haven't ever done an A-B of the Rarities version, no, but I'd be
interested in finding out if it matches the standard stereo mix until the
ending.

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 10:35pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

The Rarities LP trumpet ending doesn't sound seamless to me at all. That edit point really jumped out when I bought the LP in 1980. It sounds like a tape cut was made on the diagonal.

Nowhere on the back cover does it state that the ending was sourced from a vinyl promo 45:

... Capitol has taken a stereo version of the song and tagged on the rare final notes, which collectors might argue..."

As a matter of fact, we are! The piccolo trumpet in the left channel leading up to the ending on the LP is dry, with no reverb. On the Remix 11 promo 45, the piccolo trumpet has very noticeable reverb during that same portion, continuing on through the ending.

On the Rarities LP track, the left channel piccolo trumpet switches from dry to wet after the edit point. To me, the "tagged on" part sounds like it underwent some stereo reprocessing to keep the trumpet on the left.

One thing's for sure: the tagged-on Rarities ending sounds a lot cleaner than what ended up on the SPLHCB SDE boxed set. That begs the question: did Capitol still have its 1967 copy of the RM 11 tape when they assembled the Rarities LP in 1980? And if so, whatever happened to it?

Endings aside, there's one other notable difference between the US promo 45 (Remix 11) and the Capitol stock 45 (Remix 14), which is evident from the very start: the promo 45 begins with a very brief bass guitar note before the vocals come in less than a second later. The stock 45 opens with the vocals, trimming off the brief bass note.

The stereo Rarities LP track, like the promo 45, also begins with that very brief bass note before the vocals start. The fake stereo track from the original vinyl Capitol US Magical Mystery Tour LP begins with the vocals, just like the stock 45.
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