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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 09 July 2008 at 5:09pm | IP Logged
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My 45 of Bend Me, Shape Me by the American Breed (Acta 45-811) runs (2:10) while the label states (2:05). On the vinyl LP, the actual running time is (2:25) and there seems to be a large discrepency in running times on various cd's that contain this song so I thought I would delve into this mess to try and clarify the entries in the database. Right off the bat I find that my vinyl 45 has a matrix number of A-534 RE1 indicating that there could very well be another pressing with no RE-1 that might run longer or at a different speed than my RE-1 45. If anyone has this 45 without the RE-1 could you time it and post the results?
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:26pm | IP Logged
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My copy (styrene, Monarch pressing) is also an RE-1.
Edited by Yah Shure on 09 July 2008 at 7:27pm
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jimct
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Pat, my 45 has the "RE-1" in the deadwax as well.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 12 September 2011 at 1:30pm | IP Logged
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my commercial 45 issued as acta 811 contains "A-534 RE-1" in the runout groove as well....
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Hykker
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| Posted: 14 September 2011 at 6:05am | IP Logged
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Add another "RE-1" to the list (though my copy is vinyl).
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MPH711
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| Posted: 15 September 2011 at 6:31am | IP Logged
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I know when this came out in mono on a Dick Bartley CD (On The Radio Vol. 3) he mentions that the 45 was "speeded up" vs. the LP version.
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KentT
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| Posted: 16 October 2011 at 11:37am | IP Logged
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It is, the LP version I heard recently sounds slow to my
ear. The Mono 45 rules.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 17 October 2011 at 11:38am | IP Logged
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I can add that when this track was researched for the
Eric cd, Tom Daly's 45 (which matches all the above info)
did NOT match the sped up version on the Dick Bartley CD.
We could not locate a 45 that was like that, very sped
up, and had a longer ending like the LP version. We don't
think the guys mastering the Bartley cd were wrong, but
don't know the 45 source.
Our theory was maybe he had a DJ 45 with this version, or
there were 2 pressings. But we went with what was on
Tom's 45 to match pitch and time, as i recall.
-MM
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 18 October 2011 at 7:08pm | IP Logged
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I have both a commercial copy and a dj copy of this 45 and both are the RE-1 pressings (and running times) - that is why I am trying to find a copy that does not have the RE-1 designation as that may explain the appearance of the Dick Bartley "45 version" on the "On The Radio Volume 3" cd.
After going back and listening to a number of cd's that contain Bend Me, Shape Me I do not believe any of the cd appearances that were mastered from tape (whether mono or stereo) contain the true 45 mix (at least the RE-1 version) and that includes "On The Radio Volume 3".
Edited by Pat Downey on 18 October 2011 at 8:20pm
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davidclark
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| Posted: 21 October 2011 at 9:42am | IP Logged
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Pat, what is different or unique about your vinyl 45 that doesn't match the
version on the Eric CD, which would be the closest we have to the 45 (Mark
stating that version matched Tom Daly's 45).
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 23 October 2011 at 1:03pm | IP Logged
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The LP version and the Eric cd have more echo on the handclaps from :15 to :18 than the 45. A tambourine is noticeable on the Eric cd from :18 to :19 on the Eric cd and I hear no tambourine on the 45. The horns from :28 to :34 are mixed louder on the Eric cd than on the 45.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 26 October 2011 at 3:00pm | IP Logged
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Hi Pat,
I'm not trying to change your entry in the database, but
a couple of the differences you note had me asking "Huh?"
So i had to break out the 45 dub.
I concede that certain things are subjective, so how
"loud" something is may be in the ears of the beholder.
However, to avoid more confusion among the readers, there
are no instrument differences between the stereo and
mono. The tambourine is identical in every place.
Pat, you state that on your 45 the tambourine vanishes
from :18-:19 right in the middle of the words "you know
it, know it".
On all versions i have, tambourine is present in every
part of the song except the single drum-solo intros to
the verses. As for the horns from :28-:34, i can only
assume you may be hearing them louder because they are
off to one side.
We thank you for the compliment of "remix" but truth is
we did not have the ability to "remix" these elements as
we were working from the same 2-track stereo master
everyone else got. All we did was move the vocal side
from hard-left about 30 degrees closer to center. Even
that was only because more collectors seem to want this,
vs. a vocal being only in one channel...otherwise, only
other changes were EQ, and we the pitch-matched it to the
45, and faded it accordingly.
Now, if we got our hands on the original 4 or 8 track
multi, we sure would have liked to remix it!
But if it existed, I am sure Mr. Hoffman would have
remixed it back for the awesome MCA Vintage series.
So obviously we have the 2 track wide mix the way they
did it in '67, so we had no ability to change the
elements you mention.
If i saw that description, and then purchased a cd
expecting a remix, i expect a true remix. Just FYI.
-MM
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 26 October 2011 at 5:46pm | IP Logged
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No comment about the handclaps that have reverb on the LP version that was not on the 45 version but appears on this advertised "45 version"? Remix or not depedning on how you wish to define "remix" the entry on the Eric cd is not the 45 version.
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JL328
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| Posted: 06 March 2013 at 9:27am | IP Logged
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This one is a bear, isn't it?
I have the Dick Bartley CD. The database indicates that it contains the LP version sped up to match the length of the 2:10 (or thereabouts) 45 version.
However (and there's always a "however"), when I slow down this supposed LP version to match the 2:26 length of the original LP, it is waaaaaay too slow. So, I'm surmising that this is not simply the LP version sped up. It must have been faded early as well?
What happened here--- why is everybody messing up this song so badly? Does anybody know if the true 45 version or the true LP version has shown up anywhere?
*Edited to clarify-- I'm talking about the "Dick Bartley Presents: Classic Oldies 1965-1969" CD.
Edited by JL328 on 06 March 2013 at 9:34am
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 06 March 2013 at 10:05am | IP Logged
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JL328 wrote:
This one is a bear, isn't it?
I have the Dick Bartley CD. The database indicates that
it contains the LP version sped up to match the length of
the 2:10 (or thereabouts) 45 version.
However (and there's always a "however"), when I slow
down this supposed LP version to match the 2:26 length of
the original LP, it is waaaaaay too slow. So, I'm
surmising that this is not simply the LP version sped up.
It must have been faded early as well?
What happened here--- why is everybody messing up this
song so badly? Does anybody know if the true 45 version
or the true LP version has shown up anywhere?
*Edited to clarify-- I'm talking about the "Dick Bartley
Presents: Classic Oldies 1965-1969" CD.
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My styrene Acta 45 matches the mastering on the Dick
Bartley CD exactly, right down to the speed, EQ and
dynamics. As far as i'm concerned, the Varese Vintage
people go it right.
Edited by The Hits Man on 06 March 2013 at 10:10am
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MMathews
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| Posted: 06 March 2013 at 2:08pm | IP Logged
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Ok
So Hits Man just answered the question i was also
wondering. There must have been 2 pressings of the Acta
45, which explains the different speed and length of
Varese CD "On The Radio Vol 3" for their mono master.
This pressing runs 2:17 and is longer than our 45
pressing.
For JL328: To answer your question, we mastered the Eric
Cd "Dick Bartley Classic Oldies" using Tom Daly's Acta
45..as i said above our 45 matches Pat's 45 in every
detail. It lists 2:05, but actually runs 2:10 and has
the same matrix #'s. Btw, the CD case says 2:11 but
actual run is indeed 2:10, Tom always puts 1 sec of
silence at the start of every track.
So we took the stereo LP version, speed matched it to
Tom's 45, and also FADED it to match at 2:10.
So JL, if you just slow it down to the LP length that
won't work, it's also an early fade! It's not sped up
that much, LOL.
Out Acta 45 starts to fade quickly at the end chorus
where the horns blow loudly, and last thing you hear is
the "bend me shape me" from the next chorus, with the
final "me" at exactly 2:10.
Also, as we discussed above, we made the mix narrow and
brightened the eq. Eric favors stereo as you know, but
none of us were fond of the vocal buried over on one
side. Just a subjective thing i guess.
Coincidentally, just last week i was asked for a copy of
the 45 version in mono. Well instead of a disc dub, i
used the mono tape source from the Varese CD, because it
certainly sounds like the 45, just a bit cleaner!
But of course i made it the same pitch and l;ength as
Tom's 45, 2:10. But now we know both are probably
correct!
For Hits Man: could you post your run-out groove info,
also can you verify actual time is 2:17?
MM
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JL328
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| Posted: 07 March 2013 at 9:58am | IP Logged
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Ok. I'm confused, so please let me try to recap and you guys can tell me where I'm wrong. I think my confusion stems from the fact that we're trhowing around a lot of terms (e.g., the Bartley CD, the Eric CD, the Varese CD) without specifying which is which (especially since there is an Eric Bartley CD and a Varese Bartley CD--- Ha!).
So, here's my understanding:
It looks like there may indeed be 2 45's issued for this song.
The first 45 Version appears on the Eric CD "Dick Bartley Presents: Classic Oldies 1965-1969." This one runs 2:10. Most seem to acknowledge that this version at least approximates the known 45 Version but there is some dispute over whether this is a "true" 45 Version because it includes certain handclaps from :15 to :18 that allegedly weren't on the known version of the 45.
There does not seem to be a dispute that this CD version was created by speeding up and fading the LP Version and the Eric guys confirm that the 45 in their possession does indeed contain a sped up, faded version of the LP version.
However, some dispute remains whether the handclaps on the LP version were also on the 45 Version and that issue remains unresolved. Because of the "additional handclap debate," this version is listed in the database as "LP Version sped up to simulate the 45 Version" as opposed to "45 Version."
Is that an accurate summary?
The second 45 version appears on the Varese CD "Dick Bartley Presents: On the Radio, Voulme 3." That version runs 2:16.
It was disputed at one point whether this is a true 45 Version because it doesn't match the first 45 version (the one contained on "Dick Bartley Presents: Classic Oldies 1965-1969)." Yet the database now acknowledges that this is a "45 Version" (but states that it runs :06 longer). Further, the HitsMan confirms that this version matches the 45 in his possession (but it's unclear what the timing of his 45 is).
So, given the database and the HitsMan's confirmation, has it been accepted that the version on "Dick Bartley Presents: On the Radio, Voulme 3" is, indeed, a 45 Version?
Is that right?
One of the 45's has a matrix number of "A-534 RE1" but I can't tell from the comments whether that version matches (or at least approximates) the version on "Dick Bartley Presents: Classic Oldies 1965-1969" or the version on "Dick Bartley Presents: On the Radio, Voulme 3" or neither.
It seems as though Mr. Downey doesn't think it matches either exactly? Is this because of the handclap issue?
Also, Mark, thanks for that explanation. I didn't really think the LP could have been sped up that much but wanted to test it to see. Knocking that 2:10 version back to 2:26 makes it so slow, it's comical.
Edited by JL328 on 07 March 2013 at 12:17pm
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MMathews
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| Posted: 07 March 2013 at 10:52pm | IP Logged
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For JL; Yes i agree it is terribly confusing that both
the Eric and Varese Cd's are both Bartley collections.
As for mix differences ... handclaps..etc, that's going
to be subjective. I don't think it's as complicated as
all that.
I assumed the "LP version" would simply be due to the
stereo/mono mix difference.
To my ears, the 45 has all the same hand-claps,
tambourines and reverb that the LP version does..but even
tho the 45 is mint, the hi's on it aren't great, so i
have to give it a little treble to even hear the
tambourine. A lot of the hi-end details are just hard to
hear.
So i guess my point is it may sound different in each of
our listening environments.
The good news tho for the mono-single fans is - again to
my ears - the mono version on the Varese Bartley Vol 3 CD
is a good digital source for the mono master (if you give
the 45 lots of treble) and you can extract either 45
version from it.
MM
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 12 March 2013 at 7:01pm | IP Logged
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There may indeed be two (or more) mixes and speeds on the original 45, my RE-1 Acta 45 runs 2:12, not 2:10 as reported elsewhere, and is a little slower than the Eric CD.
My 45 doesn't look like a bootleg (I'm pretty sure this 45 was booted)
What I hear: Nothing issued on CD from tape either in stereo or mono matches my 45 exactly. One difference I hear on my 45 verses the LP version and CD versions is the mixer on the 45 boosted the level as the hook hits. You get a nice level increase for the "Bend Me Shape Me" hook on the 45. Gives the song extra punch.
Also, the handclaps are boosted at the end of the song more on my 45.
More notes: A change has apparently happened to the source tape through the years. The original Steve Hoffman mix on the Vintage series does not contain a drop out on the word "baby" on "baby you know it". But this drop out is heard on the Eric CD, the Varese On the Radio 3 CD, and the "Bend me Shape Me Best of the American Breed CD, also on Varese. (Although on the Best Of American Breed CD it sounds like an attempt was made to cover up the drop out a little)
Pretty much says to me that everybody is using the same stereo tape source at this point.
Some other things I've noticed. The reverb on the hand claps sounds louder on the Best of the American Breed CD, as the compression seems to match how the original LP version was compressed, it had some pretty old style boxy tube compression which really brought out the reverb on those handclaps.
But if you listen to the original Steve Hoffman mastering on the Vintage series, you don't get as much of that boxy compression, so the reverb on the handclaps sounds lower. But probably it isn't lower, it just sounds that way due to different compression.
Actually if you create your own mono mix by summing the Steve Hoffman mix, favoring the vocal track a little, you can barely hear the reverb on the handclaps. It gets buried in the mix.
Which leads me to wonder if the 45 has hand clap reverb too but you just can't hear it because it wasn't compressed separately like the grand canyon stereo mix was.
That all being said, on my 45 I don't hear the reverb at all on the handclaps but like Pat, I do hear it a little on the Varese On The Radio 3 CD.
So that doesn't match the 45 that I have, plus the handclaps at the end are pretty low on the On The Radio 3 CD, which also doesn't match.
And there's the hook boost in level that doesn't match.
So at least in comparison to my 45, no CD from master tape completely matches.
Again, there may be other variations of the 45.
And this is just one set of ears. Your experience may vary!
I also note Pat's comment on the Eric release noting reverb has been added, My ears notice that Eric likes to get rid of ALL the noise so my guess MMathews is that you guys added a little reverb because noise reduction can slightly shorten or affect the original reverb. Or you cleaned it up so much that some reverb not normally heard due to hiss can now be heard. I don't know which.
OK, I think I've heard enough of this song to last me a couple of years.
Who wants to compare Greenlight?
:)
Bill
Edited by Bill Cahill on 12 March 2013 at 7:07pm
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TomDiehl1
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| Posted: 18 September 2016 at 9:59am | IP Logged
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Bumping this up, as I noticed The Hits Man
hasn't yet confirmed the playing time or
matrix info on his copy. My own copy of
the 45 happens to be an RE-1 pressing like
so many others.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: American Breed - Bend Me, Shape Me
