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Subject Topic: Elvis Presley-"Suspicious Minds" Post ReplyPost New Topic
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jimct
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Posted: 03 June 2008 at 11:54pm | IP Logged Quote jimct

Pat, simply FYI, I just timed my commercial 45 of this song, which is mono, and confirmed as RCA 9764. It happens to have both a listed & actual time of (4:22), with deadwax info of "XPKM 1227 /S AIB". I only post this info because you currently note an actual run time of (4:19) for this song in the database; perhaps two different commercial 45 pressings were issued for "Suspicious Minds".

Edited by jimct on 04 June 2008 at 12:04am
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Pat Downey
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Posted: 04 June 2008 at 8:53pm | IP Logged Quote Pat Downey

My matrix number is the same as yours Jim excepty mine ends in 3S and runs (4:20).
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aaronk
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Posted: 29 December 2009 at 12:30pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

On the Top 10 Hits CD, the comment reads "missing some horn overdubs; edited." This version is actually completely remixed. From the very start, you can hear echo on the cymbol taps.

Another interesting tidbit, which is probably no mystery, is that the "caught in a trap" chrous that starts at 2:46 is looped four times on Essential; they actually spliced in the exact same audio four times in a row. The last chorus and a half are not looped.

This explains why the remixed version on The Top 10 Hits is "edited." There are no looped choruses on this remix.

Does anyone know if, perhaps, the Essential version has too many looped choruses? If you cut one of them out, the run time ends up being 4:16, which is in line with the other CDs in the database.

Edited by aaronk on 29 December 2009 at 12:37pm
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Hykker
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Posted: 29 December 2009 at 5:41pm | IP Logged Quote Hykker

My copy, which is a promo has a matrix # of XPKM 1227 4S, timing agrees with Pat's.
3 versions of this???
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sriv94
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Posted: 29 December 2009 at 7:29pm | IP Logged Quote sriv94

Just curious, Aaron--is the fake fade on the Essential version?

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Brian W.
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Posted: 29 December 2009 at 9:32pm | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

The "true" 45 version is really only the mono version, on the new remaster of "Elvis in Memphis." The reason the horn overdubs are missing from most stereo versions is because, when they were added in back in 1969, there were no empty tracks left on the multitrack tape. So they were added "live" onto the mono mixdown... that was the only way to dub them in.

That's why they can't properly remix the song to exactly match the 45 version today... those horn overdubs never existed on any tape except the mono master of the song.

CDs that feature the correct 45 horn overdubs on the stereo version, they are dubbed in from the mono 45 version, with mixed results, I hear.



Edited by Brian W. on 29 December 2009 at 9:34pm
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AndrewChouffi
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Posted: 30 December 2009 at 8:36am | IP Logged Quote AndrewChouffi

To Brian:

What's "incorrect" about the horn overdubs on, say, 'Elvis Golden Records Vol. 5'?

Andy
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davidclark
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Posted: 30 December 2009 at 8:51am | IP Logged Quote davidclark

according to something I read on a detailed Elvis sessions website, the brass
overdubs were added "live" on August 7-8, 1969 during mixing of both
mono and stereo versions, meaning they were recorded separately, albeit
almost exact.

FIrst stereo issue didn't appear until 1981 (I believe) on LP "Greatest Hits,
Volume 1".

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Brian W.
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Posted: 30 December 2009 at 10:31am | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

AndrewChouffi wrote:
To Brian:

What's "incorrect" about the horn overdubs on, say, 'Elvis Golden Records Vol. 5'?

Andy

Sorry, I didn't quite have my info correct on that one. The situation is: the horn overdubs on the stereo version are a different take than the overdubs on the mono mix, because they were both done live, for the reason listed above. It seems like I've read that some CDs in recent years remixed the song and dubbed in the horns from the mono mix.
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Brian W.
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Posted: 30 December 2009 at 10:46am | IP Logged Quote Brian W.

You all might be interested in this breakdown of the mono singles sides from the latest "Elvis in Memphis" two-disc set, from ElvisInfoNet.com. Elsewhere on the site there is an interview with Ernst Jorgensen about the new set, where the interviewer mentions the separate horn overdubs on the mono and stereo mixes of "Suspicious Minds." (Strangely, Jorgensen seems to have little knowledge of any of the history or details of Elvis's recording sessions/mixes. Not very encouraging.)

Quote:
Original Mono Single Masters.

These Mono Singles were the key studio mixes of the time and far more time was spent by the studio engineers getting the mono mixes just right than on the Stereo LP versions. They were produced so that the sound would jump off the 45rpm single or really punch out of the radio systems. In general they had a more prominent mix to Elvis' vocal, as well as more bass end and with a lot of audio compression. But there are also plenty of genuine differences in the mixes.

In The Ghetto - Elvis' vocal is more prominent with the instrumentation faded back at times. When Elvis sings "and his mama cries" @01:45 his vocal is very stark and alone compared to the stereo version. The string section is also less placed at a lower level in the mix, noticeable for instance @02:00.

Any Day Now - The backing vocals are held back in this mono mix. At 01:37 "I know I shouldn't want to keep you" Elvis' vocal stands alone whereas on the stereo version the backing vocals are obvious. This helps emphasise the sadness within the lyric. On this mix Reggie Young's acoustic guitar also drives the song along where it is nearly absent on the stereo version.

The Fair's Moving On - There's a lot of echo, not only on Elvis' vocal but also the band, on the stereo mix. On this mono mix with the bass guitar centred plus more acoustic guitar along with Gene Crispman's cymbals driving the sound - and Elvis' vocal higher (it is very "alone" on the stereo mix) - this sounds very different. This is a track that should be "car CD player" tested as it sounds great. Interestingly the heavy echo and Elvis' lone vocal on the Stereo mix also works very nicely in conveying the emptiness of the emotion with "The music has ended, the carousel's still" so both mixes do work in their intended ways.

Suspicious Minds - This is the classic #1 single since the stereo version never released in Elvis' lifetime (the first stereo release was on the 1981 LP ‘Greatest Hits Vol. 1). The backing vocals are blended in with the orchestral strings here so are not so prominent. The rhythm section, especially Tommy Coghill's walking bass-line is raised along with Elvis vocal making it sound stronger. Another noticeable difference is that Elvis' vocal is faded back up much faster on the mono version (after the fake ending) presumably to help stop DJ's cutting out too early. Here Elvis' vocal fades back by the words "... a trap" whereas the stereo fade-back doesn’t get there to the end of the next line ".... walk out".

You'll Think Of Me - The centred drum & bass again make the rhythm section more prominent and this time the backing vocals are mixed down which raises the sound of Reggie Young's sitar. During the when he takes you" break at 02:50 the backing vocals are faded way back, while towards the end and the sitar solo @03:30 the backing vocals are removed completely.

Don't Cry Daddy - The overdubbed orchestral strings are different here and mixed down, which makes the song less "syrupy" on the mono mix. Have you also noticed that on the regular stereo version Elvis adds some deep-bass hums at times? (He had the opportunity since this was a vocal overdubbed recording) On the mono version these "hums/moans" are faded out. They are missing at 01:16 - 01:22 and Elvis' final sigh at @02:36 is also hardly audible.

Rubberneckin' - The mono mix here is far "funkier" with more audio compression and a louder bass line as well as raised horn section. The overall feel is that Elvis' vocal gets somewhat lost and is too low on the mono mix. The fascination I find here is that this mono version just doesn't work on quality headphones/ipod/walkman and fails on a good quality Hi Fi, however if you play it on a simple car CD player its sounds brilliant! This track above all I think demonstrates the effectiveness and reason for these Mono originals.

Kentucky Rain - Right from the start the "dropping rain" sound of Bobby Emmons on organ is more prominent on this mix. Also Reggie Young's acoustic guitar is absent during the first verse on the stereo mix when it is featured here. While Bobby Wood's piano is also highlighted at the start of "showed your photograph" @01:35. Unfortunately this mono mix is too compressed overall and doesn't match the "empty" nature of the lyric (in the cold Kentucky Rain) as well as the stereo mix that we are used to. This mono mix also runs a few seconds longer than the stereo version.

My Little Friend - Definitely an improvement as a mono mix with the twee added orchestra overdub not so prominent and less annoying. This mono version is driven by Reggie Young's acoustic guitar which is hardly there in the stereo mix. The backing vocals towards the end are also almost faded out compared to the stereo version

Mama Liked The Roses - Elvis hums along with the first few notes which is not there on the stereo version. Once again with less prominence to the syrupy string overdub this mono version is less cloying. The horn section is almost absent and full orchestral strings sounds as if they have been limited to a simpler string quartet overdub here. Another song sounding better as a mono mix.


http://www.elvisinfonet.com/cdreview_feim_2009.htm

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Roscoe
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Posted: 30 December 2009 at 11:16am | IP Logged Quote Roscoe

Brian W. wrote:
AndrewChouffi wrote:
To Brian:

What's "incorrect" about the horn overdubs on, say, 'Elvis Golden Records Vol. 5'?

Andy

Sorry, I didn't quite have my info correct on that one. The situation is: the horn overdubs on the stereo version are a different take than the overdubs on the mono mix, because they were both done live, for the reason listed above. It seems like I've read that some CDs in recent years remixed the song and dubbed in the horns from the mono mix.


Didn't they do something screwy on that "30 #1 Hits" release a few years ago, like mix in the horns from the mono version resulting in phase issues? I can't remember if that was just the surround mix on the DVD-A version or if the regular CD version had the same problem. In any event, there were other problems with that release (such as not even using the correct take of one song) so I put it in storage and haven't listened to it in years.

Edited by Roscoe on 30 December 2009 at 11:17am
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aaronk
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Posted: 07 September 2011 at 4:14pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

I finally had a chance to compare the "Elvis In Memphis" mono version with the "Essential" stereo version. Although the mono version is a unique mix, it's very similar to a fold down of the stereo version. Additionally, the horns are identical in both recordings. I synched both copies, and they are not a different take.

So, unless the mono mix on the 45 differs from the "Elvis In Memphis" CD, the stereo version (not the one "missing horn overdubs") is the same version. All instruments are present and are about the same level in both mixes. The only notable difference was right before the song slows down at 1:40, there is a horn that comes in full volume on the stereo, where it fades up on the mono. Other than that, I couldn't detect anything different.

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MMathews
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Posted: 08 September 2011 at 9:17pm | IP Logged Quote MMathews

Thanks for confirming that , Aaron.
I really had my doubts about some of those stories... the
stereo mix (the PROPER stereo mix) that i have on "Gold
Records Vol. 5" and also the Nipper's 60's CD...
always sounded exactly the same as the mono to me except
stereo. I mean, i had heard the mono hundreds of times,
since i had it on 3 albums and the 45 before i bought
"Gold Records Vol 5".

I don't know what really happened, that many years ago
they were able to make a normal stereo mix, but in recent
years they cannot.
That Top 10 hits mix from the 80's, missing the horns
(you could hear the bleed of them way in the background.)
and that recent mix from "30#1's" .. i do NOT care for at
ALL. I won't use adjectives out of respect, as i've
learned you never know who's reading these boards, and
i've put my foot in it more than once.
But let's just say, i'd have synched the horns in a
different fashion that could have avoided an echoed drum
beat.
And, given Aaron's findings above, in hindsight, would
have been much easier to simply re-master the original
stereo mix, than spend hours to create a new strange one.

-MM
   

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eriejwg
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Posted: 05 August 2018 at 8:39pm | IP Logged Quote eriejwg

My question has been answered.

Edited by eriejwg on 06 August 2018 at 10:11pm


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