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edtop40
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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 7:49am | IP Logged Quote edtop40

yah shure,

thanks for the detailed explanation.....btw...i see that
there is another atco 45 issued as 45-6809 with the added
label info as '71-c-21302 sp'...do you know what the
differences are between your '71c-21302 pl' and this '71-c-
21302 sp' version?

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:48am | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Ed, Atlantic contracted its record manufacturing out to several independent firms across the country, and the two-letter code at the end of the matrix number on the label indicates which of those firms pressed the record.

In 1971-72, Atlantic mainly used three firms to press the company's 45s. Here are their codes and the portion of the U.S. to which their respective commercial pressings were primarily shipped:

SP = Specialty Records, Olyphant, PA.....Eastern U.S.
PL = Plastic Products, Memphis, TN.......Central U.S.
MO = Monarch Records, Los Angeles, CA....Western U.S.

Generally, you'd find Atlantic/Atco 45s in your local stores from the same pressing plant, but pressings from one of the other two plants might show up on occasion, particularly if a store's distributor or rack jobber was located in a different region of the country.

You could sometimes find multiple copies of the same title from more than one plant in the cutout bins.
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Hykker
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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 6:14pm | IP Logged Quote Hykker

Yah Shure wrote:


In 1971-72, Atlantic mainly used three firms to press the company's 45s. Here are their codes and the portion of the U.S. to which their respective commercial pressings were primarily shipped:

SP = Specialty Records, Olyphant, PA.....Eastern U.S.
PL = Plastic Products, Memphis, TN.......Central U.S.
MO = Monarch Records, Los Angeles, CA....Western U.S.



Curiously, were all Monarch pressings styrene? I have a number of Monarch pressings of Atlantic/Atco singles from the 60s & 70s and they're all styrene. Don't think I've come across an east coast one that wasn't vinyl.

Unlike some labels, Atlantic seemed to use multiple plants to press promos too.


Edited by Hykker on 10 August 2012 at 6:15pm
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KentT
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Posted: 11 August 2012 at 8:22am | IP Logged Quote KentT

Most Monarch pressings were styrene. But not all of them were.

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 11 August 2012 at 12:09pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

Hykker wrote:
Curiously, were all Monarch pressings styrene? I have a number of Monarch pressings of Atlantic/Atco singles from the 60s & 70s and they're all styrene. Don't think I've come across an east coast one that wasn't vinyl.


I've never run across a Monarch Atlantic/Atco 45 from that era that wasn't styrene. The first one I ever bought new in my neck of the woods was Buffalo Springfield's "Bluebird" in 1967. The only east coast Atlantic-related styrene 45s I'm aware of from '71-'72 were some occasional Shelley Products ("LY") pressings (Aaron has a Shelley styrene stock copy of the Stones' "Brown Sugar.") But Shelley wasn't Atlantic's primary east coast 45 presser.

Hykker wrote:
Unlike some labels, Atlantic seemed to use multiple plants to press promos too.


I always found that interesting, considering that all of the DJ 45s my college station received by mail from Atlantic were always Specialty pressings. The other two plants were used to supply promo 45s to the WEA branch offices within their respective geographical territories (for example, the extra DJ 45s I routinely picked up at the Minneapolis WEA branch office were invariably from Plastic Products.) After PP closed in 1976, Atlantic switched its central U.S. 45 pressing to PRC ("RI") whose styrene stock and DJ 45s were several notches down the quality ladder even from the often-iffy Plastic Products.

(Coincidentally, this coming Friday, August 17th, the Shelby County Historical Society will dedicate a historic marker at the row of quonset huts in Memphis that housed Plastic Products from 1949 until it closed.)

KentT wrote:
Most Monarch pressings were styrene. But not all of them were.


Can you cite some examples of those vinyl Atlantic/Atco Monarch 45s? As I mentioned, I've never seen any from the late '60s through the early '70s.

Of course, Monarch did produce a few vinyl stock 45s for other labels. The first one I encountered in the stores was Shawn Phillips' "We" on A&M.

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TomDiehl1
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Posted: 11 August 2012 at 7:37pm | IP Logged Quote TomDiehl1

Yah Shure wrote:
(Coincidentally, this coming Friday, August 17th, the Shelby County Historical Society will dedicate a historic marker at the row of quonset huts in Memphis that housed Plastic Products from 1949 until it closed.)



I was in Memphis in June for a couple of days and sought out a few historical music areas including the area for Plastic Products. I'm not really sure but it looked to me like that row of quonset huts had been turned into residential homes (the one that I'm told housed PP primarily, is up for sale last time I had heard).

When did Plastic Products close? (Pressing plant history is one area of music I am not familiar with at all)

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 11 August 2012 at 8:04pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

TomDiehl1 wrote:
When did Plastic Products close?


Yah Shure wrote:
After PP closed in 1976, Atlantic switched its central U.S. 45 pressing to PRC...


And this was just three years after the company had reached its peak in 1973. For a time in the late '60s, Plastic Products had shifted all of its 45 pressing to its other plant in Coldwater, Mississippi before resuming pressing activity at the Memphis site. The loss of some key label accounts, coupled with a downturn in sales of 45s prompted William Buster, the company's founder/owner, to fold up his tent and move on to another field even closer to vinyl: oil!

Edited by Yah Shure on 11 August 2012 at 8:19pm
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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 11 August 2012 at 10:32pm | IP Logged Quote Todd Ireland

Yah Shure wrote:
The loss of some key label accounts, coupled with a downturn in sales of 45s prompted William Buster, the company's founder/owner, to fold up his tent and move on to another field even closer to vinyl: oil!


Forgive me if this is a silly question, but this isn't the same Bill Buster who eventually went on to become the founder and CEO of Eric Records, is it?
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 12 August 2012 at 5:41am | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

A silly question? Not at all. A brain fart on my part? Definitely. :)

PP's owner was actually the late R.E. "Buster" Williams.
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AndrewChouffi
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Posted: 12 August 2012 at 9:52am | IP Logged Quote AndrewChouffi

To Todd:

I *think* Bill Buster of ERIC Records is the same man who produced the Assembled Multitude hit "Overture From Tommy".

Can anyone verify?

Sorry for thread derail...

Andy
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TomDiehl1
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Posted: 12 August 2012 at 10:41am | IP Logged Quote TomDiehl1

AndrewChouffi wrote:
To Todd:

I *think* Bill Buster of ERIC Records is the same man who produced the Assembled Multitude hit "Overture From Tommy".

Can anyone verify?

Sorry for thread derail...

Andy


Yes one and the same and that 45 first came out on.... ERIC records.

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AndrewChouffi
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Posted: 13 August 2012 at 8:20am | IP Logged Quote AndrewChouffi

To Tom Diehl:

Wow! There's my proof!

Andy
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Santi Paradoa
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Posted: 13 August 2012 at 8:34am | IP Logged Quote Santi Paradoa

I know it's off topic but that Assembled Multitude track has only shown up on CD domestically three times and never on a Eric Records disc (I'm surprised Bill has never put it on one of his Eric Records CD compilations). I had no idea it was an Eric 45 before. I've only seen the 45 on Atlantic. Thanks for that info Tom.

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eric_a
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 10:25pm | IP Logged Quote eric_a

To bring this full-circle, I picked up a Layla reissue tonight, on ERIC 6104
(backed with Bobby Bloom's "Montego Bay"). The Eric label is marked (c) 1986
Polygram.

This may have varied regionally, but I think the font on the Polydor/Time Spaces
reissue came from later in the '80s. Might this Eric reissue have predated the
Polydor/Time Pieces series?

Quote:
"Layla" finally surfaced on Polydor's Timepieces 45 reissue series, which
marked the first commercial
appearance of the full-length track in stereo on 45.


Edited by eric_a on 11 November 2017 at 10:53pm
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TomDiehl1
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 9:48pm | IP Logged Quote TomDiehl1

The Eric reissue predates it. The Polydor
45 is from about 1989 or 1990.

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crapfromthepast
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 5:59am | IP Logged Quote crapfromthepast

Ugh. I'd been dreading wading into the "Layla" waters, knowing the messy release history. Here goes...

Non-hit (2:43) 45 version from original pressings of the 45 from March 1971

The 1971 promo 45 featured a stereo 2:43 version on one side, and a mono 2:43 on the other. I think the stereo 2:43 version can be edited down from the LP version, with two edits and an early fade. I think the commercial short-version 45 is mono. Not sure if the mono 2:43 version is a dedicated mix or a fold-down.

The 2:43 version doesn't exist on CD.

Hit (7:10) 45 version from later pressings of the 45 from 1972, and LP version

The commercial long-version 45 is mono. I think it's a fold-down of the stereo version, but can't confirm. The 1972 promo 45s were short/long, both in mono, or short/long, both in stereo. It sounds like quite a few 1971 promos of the short version mono/stereo found their way to radio in 1972, as well.

The original (7:10) mix has the vocals (starting around 0:25) panned way off to the left. If you listen starting at 0:20, you'll notice the contrast between the panning of the lead guitar line (not much, if any) and the vocals (way left).

The original (7:10) mix has the piano break (starting around 3:11) roughly centered in the mix, and essentially mono.

I bring these two things up, because there are remixes floating around out there.

I have the original (7:10) mix on a variety of CDs, with a huge variation in sound quality:
  • Polydor's Eric Clapton collection Timepieces (copyright 1982, released on CD in 1984) - narrower soundstage than later discs, unnaturally boosted high end
  • Sessions/Warner Special Products' 2-CD Freedom Rock (1987) - very high-generation tape source, sounds like mud
  • Capitol/Silver Eagle's 3-CD Formula 45 (1988) - better than the two discs above, but the EQ holds back the lead guitar
  • Cema/Sandstone's Reelin' In The Years Vol. 5 (1991) - better EQ than Formula 45
  • PolyGram's PGD Presents Sound Savers Vol. 4 (1993) - digitally identical to Timepieces
  • Virgin EMI Polygram's UK 2-CD Now The Millennium Series 1982 (1999) - mastered too loud
I think the best-sounding version of the original mix that we're going to find on CD is Reelin' In The Years Vol. 5.

Non-hit (7:10) remix by John Jansen from 1988 Crossroads box set

This remix is intended to spruce up the sound, without departing too much from the original mix. It's not like the '80s-era ZZ Top remixes, which drowned everything in digital reverb. This remix is tasteful, in comparison.

The 1988 remix has the vocals centered, rather than panned left. Listen starting at 0:20, and you'll hear the lead guitar line and the lead vocals both roughly located in the center of the mix. Listen starting around 3:11, and you'll hear the piano break with some stereo-like effect, probably like the electronically-reprocessed-for-stereo stuff from the '60s. It's very noticeably NOT mono on headphones.

I have the remix on Polydor's Eric Clapton box set Crossroads (1988), and a few others that all use the same analog transfer as Crossroads:
  • Atlantic's 3-CD Classic Rock 1966-1988 (1988) - differently-EQ'd digital clone
  • Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 3 1972 (1989) - differently-EQ'd digital clone
  • Time-Life's 2-CD Guitar Rock (1990)
  • Time-Life's Gold And Platinum Vol. 2 (1997) - digitally identical to Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 3 1972
All of the above sound fine, but if you can, use the version on Crossroads because the fade extends out a second or two longer than the later discs.

Non-hit (7:10) remix by Steve Rinkoff from 1990 rerelease of Layla And Other Assorted Love Songs

The Polydor CD Layla And Other Assorted Love Songs (The Layla Sessions - 20th Anniversary Edition) from 1990 includes the credit of "20th Anniversary Edition. Remixed May-June 1990 at Power Station, NY." The remix is attributed to Steve Rinkoff.

I don't know what it sounds like, or what CDs use it.

I have one more that I can't identify: Priority's Seventies Greatest Rock Hits Vol. 13 Request Line (1992) may be the original mix, but narrows the soundstage? I can't say for sure.

Plus, I learned that the group is spelled "Dominos", not "Dominoes". I discovered that I'd misspelled all the versions in my library.

Edited by crapfromthepast on 26 April 2018 at 7:23am


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Bill Cahill
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 7:28am | IP Logged Quote Bill Cahill

I believe it was remixed twice, once for Crossroads, and a new remix for the Derek and the Dominos Boxed set. Both eliminated the distortion on the
vocals you'll hear on the original mix.The first part of the song on Crossroads sounded pretty faithful to the original mix but the piano led second
part didn't sound the same at all to me, as the mix separated the two pianos and the guitars didn't sound right either. For the Dominos box set, they
did a better job with that piano section, but the first part of the song sounded less faithful to the original mix, all of this is to my ears only of
course and I'm writing this from memory which has been proven wrong in the past!
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crapfromthepast
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 8:51pm | IP Logged Quote crapfromthepast

Thanks to Dave, I can pick up where my last post left off.

Non-hit (7:10) remix by Steve Rinkoff from 1990 rerelease of Layla And Other Assorted Love Songs

Compared to the 1988 remix, the 1990 dials the high end WAY back, pushes the tamborine deep into the background, and seems to emphasize the lead guitar a little more. On the plus side, the piano in the second half of the song sounds much more natural than the 1988 remix.

Listen starting at 0:20, and you'll hear the lead guitar, then the vocals, both roughly centered. Listen starting around 3:11, and you'll hear the piano with a relatively natural-sounding stereo, not the weird electronically-reprocessed-for-stereo style of the 1988 remix.

Priority's Seventies Greatest Rock Hits Vol. 13 Request Line (1992) uses the same analog transfer as The Layla Sessions 20th Anniversary Edition (1990), and is mastered just a teeny bit loud.

Having listened to all three mixes, I prefer the original hit mix from 1971. It's a sonic mess, for sure, but it blasts out of the speakers and headphones with authority and power. It most definitely sounds like a hit, distortion and all.

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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 6:45am | IP Logged Quote KentT

edtop40 wrote:
why would someone, or better yet some
organization, go the lengths to bootleg a commercial
45?.....makes nada sense to me.....yah sure, it's not that
i doubt what you are saying, but, what's the point in
counterfeiting a commercial 45?


This 45 was out of print for quite a number of years when
Atco lost the license for Robert Stigwood recordings. The
bootleg copies satisfied demand from jukebox operators and
other 45 buyers for the single. Also, the
bootleggers/counterfeiters did press 45 singles of in
demand records and made a killing.

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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 10:46pm | IP Logged Quote eriejwg

Found a decent sounding copy of the
original mic on "Duane Allman An
Anthology." I don't think its listed
in the database.

Ron is right about Time Pieces. High
end is a bit much.

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