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Subject Topic: "layla" - derek and the dominoes Post ReplyPost New Topic
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jrjr
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Posted: 31 March 2007 at 8:59pm | IP Logged Quote jrjr

just had a chance to check out the original 45 edit of "layla", clocking in at whopping 2:43... aside from the early fade and lack of piano coda, is there anything that distinguishes this from the 7:10 version??? thought i detected an edit in the intro, but besides that??? no chirping birds, for sure...
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jimct
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Posted: 31 March 2007 at 10:05pm | IP Logged Quote jimct

Jrjr, you're right about an edit point at the start of the listed and actual (2:43) version. On that version, the vocal begins at :12; on the full-length version, however, vocals begin at :25. For "Top 40" purposes, however, "Layla" first charted Billboard in March 1971, on Atco 6809, only peaking at #51 (info courtesy Mr. Whitburn/Paul Haney!) ALL 1971 45s featured the short version. Just over a year later, it re-entered Billboard, again using the same stock #, Atco 6809. But all 1972 commercial 45 pressings I know of featured the full (7:10) version. So, technically, for Pat's database purposes, the "Top 40 hit version" is the (7:10) version, coda and all. I do have two promo 45s for this, however; one vinyl and one styrene. Both feature the (2:43) version only, with mono on one side, and stereo on the other. I am curious to know if anyone knows if a (7:10) "Layla" promo 45 exists? This is a similar situation to Aerosmith's "Dream On", which did not reach the Top 40 in its initial 1973 edited form, but later became a 1976 #6 hit in a "full length" re-release. The 1976 promo for this song DID contain the "old" short version on one side, and the long, full-length version on the other.

Edited by jimct on 31 March 2007 at 11:08pm
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jrjr
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Posted: 01 April 2007 at 7:24am | IP Logged Quote jrjr

thanks for the info, jim... the promo 45 of "Layla" that i have has the short version on one side and the long version on the other, both mono, and both sides say "plug side"...
i wonder how many AM stations played the long version originally, because i imagine the FM stations were playing the song off the stereo LP anyway...
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jimct
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Posted: 07 May 2007 at 11:19pm | IP Logged Quote jimct

My listed (7:10) commercial 45 for this, which is mono, has an actual time of (7:02).
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sriv94
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Posted: 08 May 2007 at 9:04am | IP Logged Quote sriv94

Just for my own clarification, the (2:43) version features an edit somewhere in the opening (that trims about 13 seconds off the intro), and it also fades well before the piano exit. Correct?

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Bill Cahill
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Posted: 17 May 2008 at 6:37am | IP Logged Quote Bill Cahill

There are two edits on the intro, one to make the solo guitar open just play once, not twice, following that instead of four bars there are two bars on the intro.

Couple of other notes on the short version:

One copy I own is a DJ mono/stereo and was marked by the station as arriving in March of 1971. On that copy, the mono side is a faster pitch than the stereo side and the fade outs don't exactly match. The stereo side starts fading earlier but takes longer, the mono side, has a pretty fast dump which matches the short stock single. Mono runs 2:44 Stereo runs 2:45.

I have another DJ copy which I believe might be a boot. It has the stereo short Layla on one side and a mono "I Am Yours" on the B side. But Layla fades up on the intro a bit, sounds compressed, and might be from another record (hard to tell as it's scratchy). "I Am Yours", while mono, is off a little to the left channel. Pretty suspicious to me. It also doesn't quite fit right on the 45 adapter, the hole seems slightly too small. Anyway that one matches the other stereo DJ side as mentioned above but runs slightly slower than that and to make up for that, fades out slightly sooner, though still clocking in at 2:45.
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 17 May 2008 at 3:22pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

jimct wrote:
I am curious to know if anyone knows if a (7:10) "Layla" promo 45 exists?


Jim, the answer is yes. While the 1971 stereo/mono promos ran 2:43, the '72 promos were 7:10/2:43. My college station received redundant Atlantic singles service from both the Plastic Products and Specialty pressing plants. Pictured below are the 1972 mono/mono 7:10/2:43 DJ pressings from each plant. A second variation arrived from Specialty: a 7:10/2:43 blue-label stereo/stereo DJ 45 that became the control room copy. Both the '71 and '72 promos from Plastic Products have "PLUG SIDE" printed on both sides. Short version matrix numbers for both '71 and '72 promos are "71-C;" the '72 long versions are "72-C." The 1972 promos have either "short"/"long" or "short version"/"long version" notations.



Bill, your second copy is most definitely a boot. I spotted it in the oldies 45s at the distributor I was working for in 1976. One of those boots is pictured on the left below; on the right is my college station's original 1971 on-air promo from Specialty.



In addition to the red flag raised by the white label (legit ATCO promos carried no promo markings, either) the mastering is not typical of Atlantic releases. The font used on the "Layla" side of the boot was not in use by Specialty until later in 1971, whereas the font on the "I Am Yours" side of the boot matches that of the March, 1971 release. The pressing is not from Specialty: the vinyl quality is sub-par, matrix numbers are etched in an unfamiliar handwriting and the Specialty logo is not pressed into the wax. A true Specialty stereo DJ pressing of "Layla" bearing the 1972 font would appear on a baby blue label, not white; this boot appears to have been photocopied in b&w from the short side label. The booted 45's label has a matte finish; Specialty labels were always glossy.

So why the boot? Atlantic's US license expired, and the Derek & The Dominos catalog reverted to Polydor, which reissued the Layla And Other Assorted Love Songs LP in the US, but not a "Layla" 45. The demand was there, but legitimate product was not. Polydor didn't issue a "Layla" 45 until the late '80s. By then, the master tapes had been found, and Polydor's full-length stereo reissue 45 sounded great.



Edited by Yah Shure on 17 May 2008 at 3:42pm
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Bill Cahill
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Posted: 17 May 2008 at 8:00pm | IP Logged Quote Bill Cahill

Great stuff Yah Sure! I appreciate the detail!
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KentT
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Posted: 26 May 2008 at 8:01am | IP Logged Quote KentT

Hi,

After the Atco version was deleted, the label switched to RSO Records (Distributed by Atlantic Recording Corp.). The 45 RPM was likely available a short while on RSO. I remember owning a RSO US copy of "Layla" on 45. It was the short version in Mono. It's long gone. Just researched this, found a listing for RSO 861.

Edited by KentT on 26 May 2008 at 8:13am


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Yah Shure
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Posted: 28 May 2008 at 11:09am | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

KentT, welcome to the board!

RSO 861 was actually Eric Clapton's then-current "Hello Old Friend." There is no indication from my research that "Layla" was ever released in the 45 format on the RSO label. Between the time that the RSO imprint first appeared in 1973 to the last Atlantic-distributed 45 prior to the move to Polydor distribution, the release numbers ran from #400-410, then 501-519 (the last one being the Bee Gees' "Fanny.") During that time, there was only one Derek & The Dominos single released on RSO, and that was the label's very first 45, RSO 400. It was comprised of edits of the live versions of "Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad" / "Presence Of The Lord" from the Derek & The Dominos In Concert LP (RSO 8800.)

The first Polydor-distributed RSO 45 (#851) was a Paul Nicholas non-charter. Between #851 up through #1059, (Andy Gibb's "Time Is Time," by which time the RSO Top Line 45 reissue label had begun) only one RSO 45 was issued featuring back catalog material from the Atlantic-Atco era. RSO 873, "Can't Find My Way Home"/"Presence Of The Lord" was only available briefly in 1977 to help promote the reissue of the Blind Faith LP as a part of the RSO Collectors' Editions album series. The two songs had originally been proposed as a single on Atco in 1969, but no single was released at that time.



RSO also issued a promo-only double-LP, Classic Cuts From RSO's Collectors' Editions (PRO-2-015) which included both "Can't Find My Way Home" and the original Derek & The Dominos' "Layla." But "Layla" never appeared as a single on RSO. There were no Derek & The Dominos recordings included in RSO's Top Line 8000-series of 45 reissues. "Layla" finally surfaced on Polydor's Timepieces 45 reissue series, which marked the first commercial appearance of the full-length track in stereo on 45.

(Left: the original 1971 "Layla"/"I Am Yours" commercial issue. Right: Polydor Timepieces reissue. B-side is "Bell Bottom Blues.")



Edited by Yah Shure on 28 May 2008 at 11:18am
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KentT
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Posted: 28 May 2008 at 6:16pm | IP Logged Quote KentT

Hi,

Thanks for the clarification. My copy apparently was a counterfeit. It didn't sound as good as my Atco pressing. My Atco pressing was the long version.

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eriejwg
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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:04pm | IP Logged Quote eriejwg

Pat:

I was curious. The database would give the indication that both the short 2:43 version and the 7:10 version hit the top 40 in 1972. Wasn't the short version actually 1971 and the long version 1972?
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Bill Cahill
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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:42pm | IP Logged Quote Bill Cahill

I guess that would depend if you were buying the 45 or getting it from a radio station, as radio stations were given fresh copies of the 2:43 versions in 1972. Along with the long version. I believe that all stock in 1972 was the long version.

But I absolutely heard the short version on the radio in 1972, especially in morning drive where the long version wouldn't fit.
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Yah Shure
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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 7:47pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

John and Bill, you're both correct. Commercially, the 2:43 was '71 and the 7:10 was '72. However, it is entirely probable that any unsold '71 copies made it back into the retail pipeline the following year, even though no new 2:43 commercial 45s were pressed in '72.
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edtop40
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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 9:14pm | IP Logged Quote edtop40

has anyone been able to re-create the 2:43 version from the
7:02 full length album version?

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KentT
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Posted: 22 July 2012 at 6:36am | IP Logged Quote KentT

I don't see any reason why it can't. My 45 of Layla is the second Atco Long Version stock copy. Pressed at Plastic Products in Nashville, TN. The first version was available in dime store 4/$1.00 bags for a long time. I have one still in the bag unopened.

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edtop40
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 6:20pm | IP Logged Quote edtop40

john was kind enough to forward me his re-creation of the
vinyl 45 and it's close to matching the vinyl 45 and
after i tweaked it it's spot on.....for what it's worth,
my vinyl 45 clocks in closer to 2:45 than 2:43 even
though it states
the run time on the label as 2:43....and is pitched down
versus the full length version....(77.3 bpm's for the
7:10 version and 75.8 bpm's for the vinyl 45)..in
addition the 1972 list of 45's states the 45 is in mono
while i have a vinyl 45 issued as atco 6809 that says
stereo on the label and does sound like
stereo.....also...the vinyl 45 fades in for 0:02 while
the cd version starts cold.........the run out groove
info is '7 71-C - 21302'...does anyone else have this
commercial 45 listed in stereo?

Edited by edtop40 on 07 August 2012 at 6:34pm


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Yah Shure
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 9:22pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

edtop40 wrote:
the vinyl 45 fades in for 0:02 while
the cd version starts cold.........the run out groove
info is '7 71-C - 21302'...does anyone else have this
commercial 45 listed in stereo?


Your copy is a counterfeit, Ed. For the sake of comparison, here are the differences between the bootlegged 45 I showed upthread in post #7 (lower left corner label scan) and the 1971 stereo DJ 45 shown to the right of it (with the "X" markings on the label):

Deadwax matrix number

Boot: 71 - C - 21302
DJ 45: ST-71-C-21302-1

(The boot also has a scratched-out "OL 64 B" with diagonal upper left to lower right hash marks drawn through each of those letters and numbers. This number appears to the left of the "71 - C...." number.)   

Actual time

Boot: 2:45
DJ 45: 2:45

Placement of drums in the stereo soundstage

Boot: Left channel
DJ 45: Right channel

Volume level at the beginning of song

Boot: Fades in for first :01
DJ 45: Begins at full volume

Overall sound quality

Boot: Highly compressed
DJ 45: Normal

Vinyl sound quality

Boot: Crackly
DJ 45: Quiet

Every U.S. Atco stereo DJ 45 of "Layla" - be it the 1971 short/short, stereo/mono original or the 1972 short/long, stereo/stereo release - had a deadwax matrix number beginning with an "ST" (for "stereo") prefix. The "7 71-C..." prefix on your copy does not follow the pattern of legitimate U.S. Atco pressings.

Legitimate copies also have a dash, followed by a number following the matrix number. It's a "-1" on the Specialty (SP) DJ 45 shown, and a "-2" on my Plastic Products (PL) stereo DJ 45 of the same 1971 release. Neither the boot nor your copy have this number. The SP and PL stereo DJ 45s also have "AT-SP" etched in the deadwax. That's missing from the boot.

The faded-in intro on the boot is an indication that it was mastered from a vinyl source: namely, the stereo DJ 45. The reversed channels and heavy-handed compression are other major smell test failures.

Counterfeit "Layla" 45s weren't all that uncommon at retail during the late '70s.
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edtop40
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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 8:18am | IP Logged Quote edtop40

why would someone, or better yet some organization, go the lengths to bootleg a commercial 45?.....makes nada sense to me.....yah sure, it's not that i doubt what you are saying, but, what's the point in counterfeiting a commercial 45?

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 1:38pm | IP Logged Quote Yah Shure

edtop40 wrote:
why would someone... go the lengths to bootleg a commercial 45?


Because there was money to be made at it. As I related in post #7 with regard to "Layla," the Atco 45 was out of print by 1974, after the Robert Stigwood Organisation ended its distribution deal with Atlantic, in favor of a new deal with Polydor. Polydor/RSO then chose not to reissue "Layla" as a single, effectively forcing customers to purchase its new (1974) Polydor-label reissue of the parent LP if they wanted to obtain the song.

But just because the "Layla" 45 disappeared from the marketplace didn't mean the demand for it did. Jukebox operators, in particular, suddenly found themselves unable to fill account requests for the still-popular record. RSO's decision to not reissue a 45 of the title opened the door for counterfeiters to fill the resulting void in the 45 marketplace.

The resulting single was win-win for the jukebox operators and the counterfeiters alike. The shorter 2:45 playing time meant each jukebox was freed up to play the next selection in the queue more than four minutes sooner, which translated to more coin$ being dropped into the machines. A second benefit: the louder counterfeit 45 was more easily heard in a noisy bar or restaurant than the older, much-quieter 7:10 Atco 45. A third benefit: an off-center counterfeit "Layla" 45 sounded more normal to the happy hour crowd. ;)

Meanwhile, the counterfeiters made their own extra coin by not paying any publishing and mechanical royalties whatsoever. Couple that with the low overhead of pressing the records themselves on cheap vinyl and things begin to look lucrative even for such a seemingly-mundane title as "Layla." A counterfeit 45 like that could prove to be an even bigger windfall than some of their rare collector's 45 knockoffs. Until they inevitably get caught, that is.
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