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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 06 July 2006 at 7:46am | IP Logged Quote Todd Ireland

Does anyone know if the complete and unabridged LP version of Hot Chocolate's "Every 1's a Winner" has ever appeared anywhere on CD? I believe it runs 4:49 and is the same version that was issued on the B-side of DJ 45 copies. According to the database, the LP version is edited down to a run time of between 3:54 and 4:00 on all domestic CD appearances. Anyone have any inside knowledge or theories as to why this is?
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jimct
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Posted: 06 July 2006 at 10:41am | IP Logged Quote jimct

Todd: My best guess here is that this song was a "left field, late-in-their-chart-career" hit by the group. They actually started in the U.S. on Apple ("Give Peace A Chance"), and had the original UK hit of "Brother Louie" (with MUCH cruder lyrics), that Stories tamed down a lot for the U.S. hit. The U.S. label for "Every 1's..." (Infinity) went bankrupt only about a year after it opened. MCA inherited their catalog. When Rhino came calling for its "Have A Nice Day" inclusion, (its first CD appearance, I believe) they probably asked MCA for the 45 version, and it appears were lucky to get a competant person to handle that request. Rhino probably had a "go-to" guy inside MCA, since they were a "steady" customer. Then, years go by. When Hot Chocolate "Hits" packages then ask for it, the then-MCA junior engineers (who get stuck with these requests) probably assumed it hadn't ever been digitized before, and, as usual, took the quick, easy way out by chopping the first version they could find, and tried to simulate the 45, thinking no one would notice. They wouldn't believe the LP version would have any value here. Who ever bought Hot Chocolate LPs? Todd, probably the same old story we've seen time and again. But, MCA tape library records are probably more confusing in this case, since MCA "proper" wasn't the recording's "originator". It requires time and effort to sort out a "foreign" catalog, and often we don't get it. Similar case: Have we ever seen the 45v for "Poetry Man" on CD? No. First out on Shelter; ownership inherited by MCA - they appear to have NO clue - the LP version is on ALL CDs. But Todd, ultimately, your guess is as good as mine.

Edited by jimct on 06 July 2006 at 10:41am
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Grant
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Posted: 07 July 2006 at 10:52am | IP Logged Quote Grant

OTOH, MCA seemed pretty good about getting two edits and an LP version of "Radar Love" by Golden Earring...

Quote:
When Rhino came calling for its "Have A Nice Day" inclusion, (its first CD appearance, I believe) they probably asked MCA for the 45 version, and it appears were lucky to get a competant person to handle that request. Rhino probably had a "go-to" guy inside MCA, since they were a "steady" customer.


Well, Rhino had Bill Inglot, who either inssted on getting the right tapes, or was allowed by that time to go in himself. In the case of Hot Chocolate, e could have gotten the tapes from England.

Usually, if one has the catalog number, they can pull the right tape out of the vault, if the vault is in good shape.

Edited by Grant on 07 July 2006 at 10:58am
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80smusicfreak
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Posted: 08 July 2006 at 2:43pm | IP Logged Quote 80smusicfreak

Todd Ireland wrote:
Does anyone know if the complete
and unabridged LP version of Hot Chocolate's "Every 1's a
Winner" has ever appeared anywhere on CD? I believe it
runs 4:49 and is the same version that was issued on the
B-side of DJ 45 copies. According to the database, the
LP version is edited down to a run time of between 3:54
and 4:00 on all domestic CD appearances. Anyone have any
inside knowledge or theories as to why this is?


This was a great song from my youth, and was the tune
that made me a Hot Chocolate fan. :-) I don't know why
the "LP version" has been butchered on all U.S. CD
appearances to date, but I've always found that a bit
frustrating as well, as I prefer it over the shorter "45
version". (Luckily, I still have my original cassette of
the album, though.) However, the group was much more
successful in their native U.K., and consequently, there
have been at least a dozen hits collections released on
HC there over the years, several of which I have on
cassette, so that would be your best bet. Unfortunately,
the only import CD I have at this time is 1996's "14
Greatest Hits" on EMI 53599, which covers only their
early years from 1970-76, so it doesn't include "Every
1's a Winner" - I know, not much help there... :-(

However, in the event you're seeking the full "LP
version" because you really like the song and simply want
more of it (which admittedly strikes me as odd, as I know
you prefer single versions/mixes, and the 45 version is
available on several U.S. CDs), then the one you want is
the 12" version! I don't own a whole lot of vinyl, but
the commercial U.S. 12" single for "Every 1's a Winner"
on Infinity 16000 happens to be one of the few pieces in
my collection (if about a hundred is "a few"). :-) The
label lists a timing of (7:17), but it actually clocks in
at (7:05), as it was one of the first pieces I put on
CD-R. I can do the same for you, if you
wish...
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80smusicfreak
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Posted: 08 July 2006 at 4:10pm | IP Logged Quote 80smusicfreak

Going to re-arrange this a bit...

jimct wrote:
Who ever bought Hot Chocolate LPs?


I realize you were speaking from the label's perspective,
but I certainly did! It took me several years, but I was
able to track down all of HC's U.S. album releases on
cassette (much rarer than the LP versions), in addition
to obtaining several import hits collections from the
'80s and '90s. Although they did manage eight chart hits
here in the U.S., including three that cracked the top 10
(and two of them certified gold), to this day it still
amazes me that they weren't bigger here on this side of
the big pond - just as many others say the same about
another huge '70s act, ABBA (oh, and Cliff Richard,
anyone???). After getting hooked by "Every 1's a Winner",
I eventually picked up the rest of their back catalog by
the late '80s, and wasn't disappointed. Although they
were both released as singles here in the States as well,
why their original version of "Brother Louie" wasn't a
hit is a crime; same w/ the ultra-funky "Heaven is in the
Back Seat of My Cadillac" (which didn't even make the r&b
chart!)...

Quote:
They actually started in the U.S. on Apple ("Give
Peace A Chance")...


True. That's the one American release of theirs I've yet
to obtain, since it never appeared on any of their albums
- but I've always wanted to hear it. Hopefully it'll turn
up on CD someday, along w/ the B-side ("Living Without
Tomorrow"), assuming it hasn't already been made
available on an import (never researched it, actually)...

Quote:
The U.S. label for "Every 1's..." (Infinity) went
bankrupt only about a year after it opened.


Sad, but again, true. However, it was long enough for HC
to actually release a SECOND album on the label, 1979's
"Going Through the Motions"...

Quote:
MCA inherited [Infinity's] catalog.


Wasn't MCA the label's distributor??? I know Infinity
used the same catalog-numbering code and pressing plants
as MCA, anyway. And most of the Infinity albums are still
pretty easy to find to this day, including the two by
HC...

Quote:
...[HC] had the original UK hit of "Brother
Louie" (with MUCH cruder lyrics), that Stories tamed down
a lot for the U.S. hit.


Actually, I feel that's a bit of a stretch. HC's original
included two spoken-word interludes: One toward the
beginning where "Louie" meets and speaks w/ the black
girl's father, and later in the song, when the black girl
meets and speaks w/ "Louie's" white father. Those
interludes - which included the expressions "honky" and
"spook" - were what was cut when Stories later recorded
the song (otherwise, their cover was faithful). I could
see how the terms "honky" and "spook" might've been a bit
questionable by 1973 standards, but certainly not
today...

Incidentally, back in the late '90s, I had the pleasure
of meeting Ian Lloyd (lead singer of Stories) and seeing
him perform "Brother Louie" live. He continues to record
off and on, and his more recent material is highly
recommended...
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jimct
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Posted: 08 July 2006 at 9:02pm | IP Logged Quote jimct

I have always considered myself a big fan of the band "Hot Chocolate." "Emma" is a personal all-time favorite. I do have several of their LPs - as you correctly noted, my comment was more from an economic/big picture/label perspective, rather than my personal opinion. If you listen to the impassioned WAY Hot Chocolate's original version of "Brother Louie" has the "father" deliver that "spook" line to his "daughter", I give it NO chance to be a US hit that way in 1973. Tame by today's standards, I agree. But I don't feel it to be a stretch, and I stand by my "much cruder" assessment, compared to Stories' version. PM me if you would like a vinyl dub of their rare, long-forgotten 45 of "Give Peace A Chance/Living Without Tomorrow", as by the "Hot Chocolate Band." Yes, MCA was Infinity's original distributor, but this often results in the parent label becoming the subsidiary's biggest "creditor", as well. Restitution often results in the parent gaining "custody" of hit recordings.
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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 08 July 2006 at 11:50pm | IP Logged Quote Todd Ireland

80smusicfreak wrote:
However, in the event you're seeking the full "LP
version" because you really like the song and simply want
more of it (which admittedly strikes me as odd, as I know
you prefer single versions/mixes, and the 45 version is
available on several U.S. CDs)


What's so odd about it? Yes, I do happen to really like the song but I also like to collect LP versions as well. The reason I seldom mention LP versions on this board is because 98% of the time they are readily available on CD, whereas 45 versions are so often not.
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jimct
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Posted: 08 May 2008 at 12:54am | IP Logged Quote jimct

My commercial 45 has both a listed & actual time of (3:35). I only post this info becuase all 9 of the current database CDs which have a "45 version" notation stated next to it all have run times of exactly (3:39).
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aaronk
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Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:07am | IP Logged Quote aaronk

It's been a while since I did comparisons on this one, but I believe the Rhino Have A Nice Day version has an :04 later fade than the actual 45. I'd have to go back and check this to be sure. I have managed to re-insert the missing LP audio seemlessly into the 45 version on CD, and the end result is quite nice!
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jimct
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Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:52am | IP Logged Quote jimct

Once again, "Super Audio Sleuth" Aaron K is all over it! Thanks for your clarification, sir.
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The Hits Man
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Posted: 08 May 2008 at 9:31am | IP Logged Quote The Hits Man

jimct wrote:
Todd: My best guess here is that this song was a "left field, late-in-their-chart-career" hit by the group. They actually started in the U.S. on Apple ("Give Peace A Chance"), and had the original UK hit of "Brother Louie" (with MUCH cruder lyrics), that Stories tamed down a lot for the U.S. hit. The U.S. label for "Every 1's..." (Infinity) went bankrupt only about a year after it opened. MCA inherited their catalog. When Rhino came calling for its "Have A Nice Day" inclusion, (its first CD appearance, I believe) they probably asked MCA for the 45 version, and it appears were lucky to get a competant person to handle that request. Rhino probably had a "go-to" guy inside MCA, since they were a "steady" customer. Then, years go by. When Hot Chocolate "Hits" packages then ask for it, the then-MCA junior engineers (who get stuck with these requests) probably assumed it hadn't ever been digitized before, and, as usual, took the quick, easy way out by chopping the first version they could find, and tried to simulate the 45, thinking no one would notice. They wouldn't believe the LP version would have any value here. Who ever bought Hot Chocolate LPs? Todd, probably the same old story we've seen time and again. But, MCA tape library records are probably more confusing in this case, since MCA "proper" wasn't the recording's "originator". It requires time and effort to sort out a "foreign" catalog, and often we don't get it. Similar case: Have we ever seen the 45v for "Poetry Man" on CD? No. First out on Shelter; ownership inherited by MCA - they appear to have NO clue - the LP version is on ALL CDs. But Todd, ultimately, your guess is as good as mine.


Sony owns the Phoebe Snow catalog.

Well, Bill Inglot, then, of Rhino, sometimes had authorization to enter record companies vaults to pull the correct tapes.

I always wondered how the wrong edits of songs appear on CDs. I assumed the producer ordered an edit to appriximate a single version. Bill Inglot has stated that he has done this quite frequently in order to use a source with better sound, or if the 45 master was damaged. The problem with recreating 45 edits is that, if there is no 45 to use for a guide, or the editor doesn't remember where the edits are, we get the wrong thing on the CD. This has always been an irritation for me, as I have had to many times go in and do my own 45 edits. I used my own correct 45 edits of Boz Scaggs' "Lowdown" until it finally appeared on exactly one comp. Same with Wild Cherry's "Play That Funky Music".

Interesting comments about Infinity. I always wondered exactly what happened to that label. They had a lot of hits in 1979, from Orleans, Spyro Gyra, Rupert Holmes, and Hot Chocolate. They had a great year in 1979.

Edited by The Hits Man on 08 May 2008 at 9:33am


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aaronk
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 1:11am | IP Logged Quote aaronk

I just went back to confirm what I know about the Super Hits version on Rhino. They did a custom edit of the LP version for this one, as the edit in the middle is ever-so-slightly off, and the fade is a few seconds too late. The only reason you would ever be able to tell that the edit is off is if you put it in the multi-tracker with the actual 45.
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Hykker
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 6:14am | IP Logged Quote Hykker

80smusicfreak wrote:

Actually, I feel that's a bit of a stretch. HC's original
included two spoken-word interludes: One toward the
beginning where "Louie" meets and speaks w/ the black
girl's father, and later in the song, when the black girl
meets and speaks w/ "Louie's" white father. Those
interludes - which included the expressions "honky" and
"spook" - were what was cut when Stories later recorded
the song (otherwise, their cover was faithful). I could
see how the terms "honky" and "spook" might've been a bit
questionable by 1973 standards, but certainly not
today...


Are you kidding? In these politically correct times where every time some radio host puts his foot in his mouth he's flagged as "racist"?
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eriejwg
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 6:57am | IP Logged Quote eriejwg

Does this mean that all 3:39 versions are that same custom edit that Rhino has? Would that indicate a 'neither the 45 nor LP' or 'edit of the LP in an unsuccessful attempt...' comment?
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aaronk
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 10:13am | IP Logged Quote aaronk

No, it wouldn't warrant a "neither" comment. When I say that the edit is slightly off, we're talking about a fraction of a second. If you were to play the actual 45 and then play the CD, you'd think the edit was correct. A comment like "45 version but longer" would be more accurate. I was just stating the reason that the fade is longer is because it was a custom edit, and the reason I could tell it was a custom edit was because of the fraction of a second difference at the edit point.
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eriejwg
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 10:19am | IP Logged Quote eriejwg

Amazing info, Aaron! Thanks!
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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 11:07am | IP Logged Quote Todd Ireland

aaronk wrote:
No, it wouldn't warrant a "neither" comment. When I say that the edit is slightly off, we're talking about a fraction of a second. If you were to play the actual 45 and then play the CD, you'd think the edit was correct. A comment like "45 version but longer" would be more accurate. I was just stating the reason that the fade is longer is because it was a custom edit, and the reason I could tell it was a custom edit was because of the fraction of a second difference at the edit point.


I've long suspected a significant number of 45 versions that exist on CD are custom edited from their respective LP versions and other sources to replicate the 45. And I'd be willing to bet many of these custom edit points are off by a fraction of a second compared to their vinyl 45 counterparts (I've spotted several instances of this myself) because many mastering engineers, especially those working for the major record labels, just don't pay careful attention to detail like some of us do. Like Aaron said, most of the time these ever-so-slightly-off custom edits aren't noticeable unless you're doing a direct A/B comparison with the vinyl 45 using digital software. Yet this doesn't necessarily stop 45 "purists" who seek to obtain exact single version replicas in master tape/CD quality from feeling a bit uneasy about any less-than-precise editing! (Speaking for myself anyway.)

Edited by Todd Ireland on 15 May 2008 at 11:09am
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aaronk
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 12:01pm | IP Logged Quote aaronk

To add to Todd's comment, it's possible that at the time this was done, the engineer only had the tape-and-razor-blade editing option. Even the best engineer could not likely replicate an edit EXACT using that method.
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eriejwg
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 12:06pm | IP Logged Quote eriejwg

And, with the razor blade method of editing, only one chance to get it right. No 'undo' capability like today...
:)
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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 15 May 2008 at 12:50pm | IP Logged Quote Todd Ireland

Actually, there *was* a way to undo a tape edit. LOL Back when I worked with razor blade editing, I'd been known on occasion to reach into the trash for a discarded piece of reel-to-reel tape to retrieve a syllable or a beat I had accidentally chopped off. Tedious and time consuming as it was, I would actually undo my tape splice to re-insert an itty bitty piece of the discarded tape containing the missing audio I needed. Then I'd have to tape all the pieces together again! All I can say is, thank God digital editing came along!!

Aaron's razor blade editing theory does bring up a good possible explanation as to why some of the 45 edits available on CD may not be exact. But then again, didn't most major record labels have digital editing capability by the time the popularity of the CD medium began to take off in the mid- to late 1980s?
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