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Topic: Hall & Oates - She’s Gone

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MCT1
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Posted: 25 September 2008 at 7:29am \| IP Logged

The Hits Man wrote:

I know we talk about CD here, and Pat says the 45 is remixed. But, yesterday, I was out shopping for used vinyl, and decided to look for copies of this song on 45. Well, I bought one with a different number on the runout groove. This one I just bought says: ST-A 27668-3 STA 27668-4.

I played it and it sounds different. The sound is smoother, like the CD versions, but still has the hard edit at the horn part. Add to that, the 45 has a lot of bass, about a 17db rise at around 45Hz, and it's not compressed like version 3. Gee, I hope I don't find another copy that has the horn part smoothed over!

Anyway, I though you might like to know. I decided to not do a needle drop of it, and edited down the CD LP version to recreate the 45 edit. Then, I added that bass bump, but also added a bit of air. The edits are actually very easy to recreate, but the fade was troublesome, and I still don't have it perfect.

As always when we encounter these variations, I would be curious as to whether the various copies of this 45 discussed in this thread came from different pressing plants. Fortunately, Atlantic made it very easy to tell where a particular 45 was pressed. Atlantic generally printed the master number on the label of its 45s. From about 1967 or 1968 onwards, this number almost always has a two-letter suffix which indicates the plant that pressed the record.

At the time this single was in production, neither Atlantic nor its parent Warner Music owned their own pressing facilities. Atlantic typically contracted with three or four different plants to supply 45s to various parts of the country. Common plant codes used around this era include:

SP = Specialty Records, Olyphant, PA
RI = PRC, Richmond, IN
MO = Monarch Records, Los Angeles, CA
PL = Plastic Products, Memphis, TN

Gary and Hits Man, could you check your 45s to see what suffix they have on the label?

Edited by MCT1 on 25 September 2008 at 7:30am

Yah Shure
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Posted: 25 September 2008 at 12:48pm \| IP Logged

I had to listen under headphones in order to hear the "horrendous" horn edit at the 2:00 mark, because I'd never heard anything remotely horrendous about the 45 version since first playing it in late 1973.

IMO, the degree of "horrendousness" that one might attribute to this edit depends on which version the listener either heard first, or associates with the most. In my case, I never cared for the long version; we played "She's Gone" from the 45 on my college station in '73-'74, and when I bought the single in January of '74, I obviously got the short version.

To me, it has always sounded like several more horns coming in at the 2:00 mark, like a reinforcing blast of brass. Now that I've scrutinized the edit, yes, I can tell that it is, in fact, an edit. After playing the cut from the Abandoned Luncheonette LP, it was apparent that there was no edit at the comparable spot. Guess they couldn't afford the extra horn players. ;)

Just the same, the edit doesn't bother me at all, because it's the single that I've always preferred. I'll continue to live with my extra-blast-o'brass theory... or at least I'll try to. The downside of discovering previously undetected edits is that from that moment on, they'll stick out like sore thumbs.
Forever.
Thanks a LOT! :)

MCT1, any "She's Gone" 45s pressed by PRC would be the '76 reissue (3332) since Atlantic was not yet utilizing PRC for 45s in 1974.

I have both '74 and '76 pressings from Specialty and Plastic Products. What's interesting is that in spite of the two-year gap between production, the stampers used by Specialty in 1976 were the exact same stampers they'd originally used in 1974. Ditto for Plastic Products; they'd also re-utilized their 1974 stampers. The matrix handwriting is identical on the Specialty plates, and aligns with the lead-in and trail-out grooves pefectly. Same for PP's own plates. The mastering changed at Atlantic during that two-year span, and while the short sides of both the Specialty and Plastic Products 1976 DJ pressings used the 1974 stampers, the long (5:15) sides were all cut in 1976, utilizing the smaller lead-in groove area and matrix handwriting typical of other Atlantic singles of that period.

Here are the matrix numbers on my copies:

Specialty short version pressing; 1974 promo, 1976 promo:
"1-1" "ST-A27668-1" "SP" (the "SP" is hand-etched, with no Specialty logo)

Plastic Products short version pressing; 1974 stock, 1976 stock, 1976 promo:
"STA27668-2" "PP" (no dash in the matrix #)

Here are some scans:

(Left)1974 Specialty DJ pressing, stereo.
(Right)1976 Specialty DJ pressing, short.

1976 Specialty DJ pressing, long version.

(L)1974 Plastic Products stock.
(R)1976 Plastic Products stock.

(L)The Atlantic "breakout" sleeve utilized for '74 and '76 Specialty promos, along with the mono side of the 1974 promo.
(R)1974 "Regional Monsters" promo insert.

(L)1976 Promotional EP for Abandoned Luncheonette included the LP's two 1974 singles on side one. "When The Morning Comes" featured the unedited LP version.
(R)"When The Morning Comes" edited 45, the non-charting follow-up to "She's Gone" in 1974. (The intro is cut in half.)

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 25 September 2008 at 1:52pm \| IP Logged

Great posts, Yah Shure and MCT1! I certainly appreciate the depth of knowledge you guys have!

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The Hits Man
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Posted: 25 September 2008 at 3:27pm \| IP Logged

MCT1,

The one with the brash sound has "MO", from Monarch.

The one with the smoother, yet bassy sound, came from "RI".

They are both styrene pressings.

Thanks for the info on pressing plants! Most of the Atlantic records I have in my record collection are usually from either Monarch or Specialty.

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The Hits Man
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Posted: 25 September 2008 at 3:31pm \| IP Logged

Yah Shure wrote:

To me, it has always sounded like several more horns coming in at the 2:00 mark, like a reinforcing blast of brass. Now that I've scrutinized the edit, yes, I can tell that it is, in fact, an edit. After playing the cut from the Abandoned Luncheonette LP, it was apparent that there was no edit at the comparable spot. Guess they couldn't afford the extra horn players. ;)

Like you, I never noticed the horn edit until this forum, but I don't need headphones to hear it.

When I recreated the 45 edit, It was easy to do the horn edit. All I had to do was concentrate on the drums and use the spectral view in Audition 3.

I also prefer the single edit to the LP version.

Man, did I get depressed after repeatedly listening to the song!

Edited by The Hits Man on 25 September 2008 at 3:35pm

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MCT1
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Posted: 30 September 2008 at 10:09pm \| IP Logged

Yah Shure, I wish I had your record collection!

I guess it's hard to draw any conclusions as to why the one that sounds different is different. It's from a different plant from the others; it could have been a deliberate attempt to make the edit sound better, or it could just be a random difference related to mastering or pressing conditions at that plant. I'm in New England, so Specialty pressings tend to be dominant around here.

I notice that the "When The Morning Comes" promo still has the 1841 Broadway address on it. If that was the follow-up to "She's Gone", I'd think the move to 75 Rockefeller Plaza must have happened by then. I guess Specialty still hadn't run through its inventory of 1841 Broadway promo labels yet. I have a stock copy of "Waterloo" by Abba (3035) pressed by Specialty which has the 75 Rockefeller Plaza address.

Edited by MCT1 on 30 September 2008 at 10:13pm

Yah Shure
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Posted: 01 October 2008 at 7:16am \| IP Logged

MCT1, you have sharp eyes! You are quite correct in saying that Specialty hadn't exhausted its inventory of 1841 B'way promo labels. I checked my copies of "Waterloo," and found the updated 75 Rockefeller Plaza address on stock copies from both Plastic Products and Monarch. My only promo copy from PP had the 75 Rock addy on the mono side label, but the older 1841 label on the stereo side.

So I went back and checked my Specialty and PP promos of "When The Morning Comes." The Specialty pressing has the old 1841 labels on both stereo and mono sides, while the PP copy utilized the same configuration as their later "Waterloo" pressing: 1841 B'way stereo/75 Rock mono. So PP ran out of the older mono Atlantic promo labels before Specialty did.

Then there are the variations in the pinwheel on the Atlantic labels... but that's a whole 'nother thread. :)

torcan
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Posted: 04 October 2008 at 6:08pm \| IP Logged

MCT1 wrote:

Yah Shure, I wish I had your record collection!

So do I. If you ever want to clear out some space, I'd be glad to take some of them off your hands! :)

Yah Shure
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Posted: 04 October 2008 at 10:33pm \| IP Logged

torcan wrote:

MCT1 wrote:

Yah Shure, I wish I had your record collection!

So do I. If you ever want to clear out some space, I'd be glad to take some of them off your hands! :)

(Note to self: Beef up home security system.) Thanks, guys.

Although they didn't chart, here are the first two Hall & Oates Atlantic 45s. Note the interesting artist credits. On the Whole Oats album cited on both labels, the artists are listed only as Daryl Hall & John Oates on both the cover and the LP label. There is a "The arrangements are by Whole Oats." mention on the back cover, but that's it.

"Goodnight And Good Morning" came out in late 1972, and I'd made an April, 1973 purchase date notation on the "I'm Sorry" sleeve.

MCT1
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Posted: 07 October 2008 at 9:58am \| IP Logged

Yah Shure wrote:

So I went back and checked my Specialty and PP promos of "When The Morning Comes." The Specialty pressing has the old 1841 labels on both stereo and mono sides, while the PP copy utilized the same configuration as their later "Waterloo" pressing: 1841 B'way stereo/75 Rock mono. So PP ran out of the older mono Atlantic promo labels before Specialty did.

Just to confuse things further, check out this label scan of a Specialty stereo long/short promo of Led Zeppelin's "D'yer Mak'er" (2986), with a 75 Rockefeller address on it:

http://www.vjez.com/zep/us45/dyeUSprosps.jpg

"D'yer Mak'er" reached its chart peak of #20 in the final week of 1973, remaining in the Top 40 for the first few weeks of 1974. Based on that, even if this copy is a later re-service, I'd still expect it to have been pressed earlier than promos of "When The Morning Comes".

The same site also has a label scans of several other stock and promo copies of this title, including a Specialty mono long/short promo. All have 1841 Broadway addresses so far as can be seen (one Specialty stock copy, identified as a "re-issue" for reasons not apparent to me, is pictured inside a factory sleeve which covers the address).

Quote:

Then there are the variations in the pinwheel on the Atlantic labels... but that's a whole 'nother thread. :)

You know, I never noticed that before....

eriejwg
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Posted: 07 October 2008 at 11:57am \| IP Logged

What's interesting in the D'yer Mak'er scan is that it's labeled as the Short Version, the time listed is the full length 4:19. The short version, I believe, actually ran 3:15.

Todd Ireland
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Posted: 09 May 2009 at 8:23pm \| IP Logged

A side note regarding "She's Gone"... The actual run time of Jim's commercial 45 copy is 3:26. (The printed record label time is 3:24.) I mention this as a supplement to the database, which presently only shows DJ run time info for the song.

By the way, did we ever determine if the original hit 45 mix has appeared anywhere on CD?

Edited by Todd Ireland on 09 May 2009 at 8:26pm

edtop40
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Posted: 09 May 2010 at 7:38am \| IP Logged

i just listened to my commercial 45 issued as atlantic 3332 next to the cd version from "greatest hits-rock and soul pt 1" and they sound identical to me.....don't know where this "remixed" idea comes from....it should be removed

Edited by edtop40 on 09 May 2010 at 7:40am

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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 25 May 2013 at 2:11pm \| IP Logged

I have to admit, I'm still not entirely clear regarding the 45 version situation with Daryl Hall & John Oates' "She's Gone"... Are we in essence dealing with two different 45 pressings here where one is a straight edit of the LP version and the other is slightly remixed? Do the mixes differ significantly enough to warrant mention in the database? And do all 45 pressings contain the rough edit in question?

Now, if the rough edit on the 45 version of "She's Gone" was smoothed out specifically for CD release, wouldn't this by definition render it an incorrect 45 version? There seems to be some debate here as to whether the term "remix" is appropriate in this instance. Perhaps it might be more accurate to have the "remixed 45 version" comments re-stated to read something like: "this is technically not the 45 version as there is a slightly different edit at the x:xx mark".

Any further thoughts on this?

Bill Cahill
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Posted: 25 May 2013 at 7:35pm \| IP Logged

I don't have enough sources to compare but I thought at least the original issue of "Rock and Soul Part One" had the original "She's Gone" single edit. Later I heard an improved edit which I assumed was a crossfade at the horns to make it sound smoother. I don't have an commercial CD source for that but I know that TM Century Gold disc issued it sounding better. I don't know if they did it themselves or they got it from a later CD release.

vinyljay69
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Posted: 22 September 2015 at 8:34am \| IP Logged

Wanting to compile a Hall & Oates singles collection, I've begun to research and compare the 45's I have to whatever CD sources I have at my disposal. "She's Gone" has proven to be the trickiest yet to dissect.

Comparing the 45 (1976 press) to the version on the original "Rock n Soul" comp. from 1983 (both LP and non-remastered CD), the subtle level differences Pat has detailed of the hi-hat on the intro and synth at 0:28 (a Moog, maybe) being lower can be heard, though neither is significantly different. The chop edit at 2:00 on the 45 is also less obvious on the RNS version, so the possibility exists that it could be a slight remix of the single. Sonically, the stereo 45 has solid mid-range punch, while the RNS version has those frequencies carved out a bit more. So it's equally possible that eq alterations and mastering preferences could account for the perceived variations. (Personally, I'd opt for the latter.)

Here's where it gets trickier - the 2006 remaster of the RNS comp. offers a new re-edit. Close listening to either the 45 or 1983 RNS version reveals the first edit point to be at 0:05. The 2006 version has the first edit one full beat and second earlier at 0:04 - the guitar amp in the background can be subtly heard fading up earlier because of the different edit point. The perceived mix variations from 1983 are also gone, but the most noticeable difference is that the rough edit at 2:00 is now almost completely cleaned up and smoothed over. Looking at a visual representation of the audio in a wav editor, it appears they accomplished this with a slight volume drop and a lot of compression and/or limiting. At any rate, it's the best that particular edit point has ever sounded.

But wait - if you act now, you'll get even more confused! How about yet another edit variation? Yep - the "Atlantic Soul (1959-1976)" box features an alternate edit at 2:00 that removes the two-beat drum fill and replaces it with the steady snare hits that lead into the (excised) sax solo. It's a well-done, unique edit that can't easily be recreated without some fancy editing and crossfading, leading me to believe it was created specifically to replace the original Atlantic 45 edit.

So the 45 itself is only an edit and not a remix of the LP version from "Abandoned Luncheonette". Citing just the sources above, there are at least three different variations of it available on CD, with the original, non-remastered "Rock n Soul" version being the closest rendering in the digital realm, but none seem to be a genuine representation of the 45.

aaronk
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Posted: 22 September 2015 at 11:03am \| IP Logged

Thanks for the nice first post! If I have a chance, I'll have to do another
comparison between the original 45 and the RNS edit. When I
compared them years ago, I wasn't inclined to believe that it was an EQ
and mastering difference, but it would be worth looking into again.

Welcome to the board!

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 22 September 2015 at 5:18pm \| IP Logged

Motion seconded. Welcome!

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 24 September 2015 at 6:32pm \| IP Logged

Nice work, vinyljay!

I don't have many copies of "She's Gone", but I'll
contribute what I have.

I have the LP version on:

Atlantic's
Abandoned Luncheonette (copyright 1973; not
sure when the CD was released; sounds great)

Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol.
12 1975-1979 (2001; digitally exactly 0.288 dB
louder than Atlantic's Abandoned Luncheonette;
also sounds great)
import multi-disc
Starting All Over Again (1997; uses same analog
transfer as Atlantic's Abandoned Luncheonette;
sounds great
German import Looking Back
(1991; sounds a little warbly; noise reduction? avoid
this one)
2-CD Ultimate (2004; has
additional compression/limiting - avoid)

I
have two versions of recreations of the 45 edit.

One is RCA's Greatest Hits Rock 'N Soul Part 1,
which vinyljay described above.

The other is on Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies
Vol. 18 1976 Take Two (1991), with a differently
EQ'd digital clone on Time-Life's 2-CD Body Talk
Vol. 5 Sealed With A Kiss (1996) and another
differently-EQ'd digital clone on Time-Life's 2-CD
Classic Soft Rock Vol. 2 Ride Like The Wind
(2006). I haven't picked these apart in detail.

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