Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: Byrds Turn Turn Turn / Mr. Tambourine Man

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Topic: Byrds Turn Turn Turn / Mr. Tambourine Man

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EdisonLite
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Posted: 23 January 2024 at 2:52pm \| IP Logged

What are the best stereo versions on CD of the above 2
songs? Also, I found a "1990 stereo mix" of Mr. Tambourine
Man. (That's how it's labeled.) Was there no stereo version
made in the '60s?

davidclark
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Posted: 23 January 2024 at 5:14pm \| IP Logged

Neither song was stereo in the 60s. "Mr. Tambourine Man" first stereo issue
1987 on Murray Hill Records subsidiary Re-Flyte Records LP "Never Before",
but in a narrow mix - this was on the 4-CD box set "The Byrds". A wide mix is
on 1992 CD "20 Essential Tracks From The Boxed Set: 1965-1990" which
fades later. "Turn! Turn! Turn!" is on the box set as well (a 2-track mix, which
is all we have), also fades later.

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mjb50
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Posted: 23 January 2024 at 6:45pm \| IP Logged

The stereo LP version is in very narrow stereo. Vocals are slightly to the right.

It may not have been intentional, but the end result is slightly different from the mono LP & single.

Edited by mjb50 on 24 January 2024 at 10:32am

EdisonLite
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Posted: 24 January 2024 at 3:55pm \| IP Logged

I ended up buying Byrds' "20 Essential Tracks from the
Boxed Set..." CD, which has both these songs in wide
stereo. Thanks for the info.

davidclark
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Posted: 24 January 2024 at 8:27pm \| IP Logged

mjb50,

Assuming you are refering to "Turn, Turn, Turn" here....I wouldn't refer to the
stereo version as "stereo LP version" is this case. As I mentioned above, it was
first issued in stereo in the CD era.

Edited by davidclark on 24 January 2024 at 8:28pm

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EdisonLite
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 1:17pm \| IP Logged

David, that's interesting. So the slightly-stereo and the more fully stereo-
versions were both issued during the CD era? Is that the case?

My understanding is the wide-stereo versions were created in 1990 (well, at
least for Mr. Tambourine Man. Not sure when the one for "Turn! Turn! Turn!"
was created.)

mjb50
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 1:54pm \| IP Logged

@EdisonLite, you weren't asking me, but yes, David is right about the full stereo mixes being from 1987 and 1992. The 1987 mix does not sound very authentic but the 1992 one is pretty good.

@davidclark, as for the LP version, I say listen for yourself in headphones. The linked examples are from US vinyl LPs but the same effect is heard on the CD reissues.

I realize that a line has to be drawn somewhere, and this may or may not be "accidental stereo" as sometimes happens. In my personal collection, I do consider the stereo LP version to be a stereo version, but with an asterisk. Of course, opinions can vary and experts can disagree.

Edited by mjb50 on 25 January 2024 at 3:45pm

EdisonLite
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 2:10pm \| IP Logged

Mike, was there a 1992 (or 1990?) wide stereo mix done for Turn...? The Byrds'
"20 Essential Tracks from the Boxed Set..." CD I ordered yesterday says Mr.
Tambourine Man is the 1990 stereo mix. But doesn't give a year for the remix
of Turn Turn Turn (Maybe once I get the CD, the liner notes will say).

I hope this CD has a wide stereo mix of Turn Turn Turn.

mjb50
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 3:43pm \| IP Logged

As David said, the 1987 stereo remix first appeared on Never Before and was then included on The Byrds 1990 box set.

The 20 Essential Tracks from the Boxed Set CD came out in 1992, and it has the wide stereo remix which, despite the title of this CD, was not released anywhere else before this, as far as I know. So I call it a 1992 remix, although maybe it was actually created in 1990.

Edited by mjb50 on 25 January 2024 at 3:45pm

davidclark
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 7:47pm \| IP Logged

mjb50 wrote:

...

@davidclark, as for the LP version, I say
listen for yourself in
headphones. The linked examples are from US vinyl LPs but the same
effect is heard on the CD reissues.

...

That's a prime example of electronic stereo, albeit very slight. And, my
comment refered to "Turn...", while you've sent me "Tambourine".

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mjb50
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 8:43pm \| IP Logged

Oh, sorry about that. I overlooked that this thread was a two-fer!

For "Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There is a Season)", in my files, I have these as the ideal copies:

3:34 mono album & single version from Turn! Turn! Turn! 2012 CD (SICP 20373)
3:41 stereo album version from Turn! Turn! Turn! c. 1989 CD (CK 9254)

(I also have vinyl LP transfers which sound exactly the same.)

The longer duration on the stereo LP is due to a longer fade as well as a slightly slower tape speed, just like on "Mr. Tambourine Man".

The stereo album version's stereo is even weaker than in "Mr. Tambourine Man". I'm leaning more toward accidental stereo, not anything deliberate. I'm guessing there were separate left and right circuit paths in the mixing console feeding into a recording head for the destination tape, and those paths were not electrically identical, resulting in a slightly different frequency response. The tambourine ended up a little louder in the left, and certain vocal parts ("kill", "heal", etc.) ended up a little louder in the right. But I could be wrong.

I updated the clips page so you can hear for yourselves.

Anyway, these true stereo remixes were both released in 1990:

3:35 1990 wide stereo remix based on mono album & single version from Time-Life AM Gold - The Mid '60s
3:53 1990 wide stereo remix based on stereo album version from The Byrds 1990 CD box set

Edited by mjb50 on 25 January 2024 at 9:01pm

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 10:26pm \| IP Logged

Hit 1965 mono mix

It's the hit.

The mono version first appeared on CD on Columbia's Byrds collection The Original Singles 1965-1967 Volume 1 (1987). This CD is not exactly a sonic masterpiece, and is best avoided if possible. It seems to use extremely high-generation source tapes (maybe from a C-120 cassette). The same analog transfer is used on:

Entertainment Weekly's 35 Years Of Rock And Roll (1992)
TM Century track no. 00006238

Rhino did a new analog transfer for Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1965 (1989). It sounds significantly better here than on Original Singles. The same analog transfer is used on:

Time-Life's 25 Years Of #1 Hits (1991)
Time-Life's History Of Rock 'N' Roll Vol. 2 Folk Rock 1964-1967 (1993)

I have one outlier, which isn't based on any of the above masterings and falls sonically between Original Singles and the Rhino disc:

Sony's Forever Rock Vol. 2 (1996)

The song wasn't mixed to stereo in 1965, but if you want the song in stereo...

Fake stereo mix (I previously misidentified this as the narrow stereo mix from Never Before.)

This first appeared on the vinyl stereo Mr. Tambourine Man LP from 1965.

The opening guitar starts panned slightly left. The vocals are panned slightly right. I believe that this is an EQ-based fake stereo mix, rather than a real, dedicated stereo mix.

I believe that this version first appeared on CD on Time-Life's Classic Rock Vol. 1 1965 (1987); it existed in 1987, and Columbia would have sent the mix to Time-Life on reel-to-reel tape. It sounds pretty terrible, as if it's (surprise) from a high-generation source tape. The same analog transfer is used on:

JCI's Only Rock And Roll 1965-1969 (1994)

The same source tape for Classic Rock appears to be used for Columbia's Pop Classics Of The '60s (1989), which sounds significantly better and runs out to about the same length as Classic Rock. The same analog transfer is used on:

Columbia/K-Tel's Seems Like Yesterday Vol. 5 (1990)
Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 20 The Folk Years Yesterday's Gone (2002)

Non-hit 1987 stereo mix (I previously misidentified this as being remixed specifically for the 1990 box set. It wasn't.)

Lawrence Wendelken and Jim Dickson remixed the song in 1987 for Re-Flyte Records' LP/cassette release Never Before (1987), which appeared on CD on Murray Hill Records in 1989.

Overall, it sounds smoother than the mono or fake stereo mixes, with the hi-hat mostly drowning out the tamborine. It runs a teeny bit faster than the fake stereo mix on Pop Classics.

Vic Anesini and Tim Geelan did a new analog transfer (but not a new mix) of the song in 1990 for Columbia/Legacy's 4-CD box set The Byrds (1990, US catalog number 46773). It has a more full EQ on the box set, but the sound quality is comparable to Never Before. The same analog transfer is used on:

Realm Canada's Greatest Hits Of The '60s Vol. 1 (1995)
Time-Life's Treasury Of Folk Music Vol. 4 Folk Rock (1999)
Ace UK's Chartbusters USA Vol. 2 (2002)
TM Century track no. 00001289
TM Century track no. 00008212

Non-hit 1992 stereo mix

Vic Anesini and Tim Geelan remixed the song in 1992 for Columbia/Legacy's 20 Essential Tracks From The Boxed Set 1965-1990 (1992). The opening guitar part in the first four or five seconds is entirely in the right channel, with nothing at all in the left channel. The entire song is in wide stereo, with the drums entirely in the right channel, and so forth. It runs about 2:29, about 12 seconds longer than any other version.

The same analog transfer is used on:

Sony's full Mr. Tambourine Man album (1996 rerelease)
Sony's Advanced Music promo (1996)
Sony's 2-CD Rock The Train Kept A Rollin' (1999) - fades 17 beats early; avoid for this track
Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 33 The '60s Generation (2001)
Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 6 1960s (2001)
Time-Life's Legends For Your Love (2004)
Time-Life's 2-CD Flower Power Age Of Aquarius (2007)
Time-Life's AM Gold Kind Of A Drag (2021)

Non-hit early recordings (demos mixed after-the-fact)

There are a few different mixes out there, including:

In The Beginning (1988)
Preflyte Sessions (2001)
one called Preflyte, which seems to be a different recording than the above two

My recommendations

For the hit mono version, go with Rhino's Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1965 (1989, runs 2:17).
For the fake stereo mix, go with Columbia's Pop Classics Of The '60s (1989, runs 2:17).
For the 1987 narrow stereo mix, go with Columbia/Legacy's 4-CD box set The Byrds (1990, US catalog number 46773, runs 2:16).
For the 1992 wide stereo mix, go with Columbia/Legacy's 20 Essential Tracks From The Boxed Set 1965-1990 (1992,runs 2:29).

For the early demo recordings, take your pick.

Edited by crapfromthepast on 26 January 2024 at 5:04pm

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mjb50
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 11:03pm \| IP Logged

[post deleted; no longer relevant]

Edited by mjb50 on 26 January 2024 at 10:19pm

VWestlife
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Posted: 25 January 2024 at 11:21pm \| IP Logged

The wide stereo version of "Turn! Turn! Turn!" is on the Forrest Gump soundtrack. The vocals are in the left channel only, while the instruments are panned slightly to the right.

p.s. There are also narrow stereo and wide stereo mixes of Scott McKenzie's "San FranciscO". The narrow stereo version has some tape dropouts and sounds pretty terrible, while the wide stereo version sounds fantastic. (I have it on "California Pop 1963-1967".)

EdisonLite
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Posted: 26 January 2024 at 3:51am \| IP Logged

I'm still a bit confused. (Sorry).

I just ordered Columbia/Legacy's 20 Essential Tracks From The Boxed Set 1965-1990. Does it have the wide stereo versions for both songs?

Edited by EdisonLite on 27 January 2024 at 3:44am

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 26 January 2024 at 5:53am \| IP Logged

Well, nuts.

Thanks to Mike (mjb50), I can confirm that Never Before includes the same version that's on the 1990 box set. I prefer the EQ on the 1990 box set, but otherwise they're pretty close in sound quality.

I revised my post above to show the most up-to-date info. Thanks for all the help, everybody!

Edited by crapfromthepast on 26 January 2024 at 4:54pm

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mjb50
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Posted: 26 January 2024 at 6:43pm \| IP Logged

I agree with your revised assessments, Ron. Thanks for looking into it and for going through all those CDs!

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 26 January 2024 at 10:37pm \| IP Logged

Thanks for the help, Mike! I always appreciate the help getting the details right.

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Bounder's Bay
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Posted: 31 January 2024 at 11:59pm \| IP Logged

The original stereo mixes aren't fake/rechanneled (E) but simply very narrow, according to Luke Pacholski's research on the Hoffman board:
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/byrds-stereo-mixes-of -mr-tambourine-man-turn-turn-turn-he-was-a-friend-of-mine.65 4694

mjb50
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Posted: 01 February 2024 at 3:59pm \| IP Logged

In "Turn!...", like around 1:30, I hear the tambourine sometimes in the center, sometimes on the right. I'm inclined to think this has to be accidental, which makes me think all of it must be.

My interpretation of the comments in that SH forum thread is that everyone is still just speculating.

It's weird. The stereo effect is too subtle for me to confidently say it's process stereo (fake, rechanneled, whatever you want to call it). It doesn't have the distinctive out-of-phase sound you would expect.

They almost certainly aren't dedicated stereo mixes, or else they'd sound more like the rest of the albums. And if it were intentional, you'd think it would be a more dramatic effect. So I lean toward the idea of it being accidental stereo, a result of hardware glitches, quirks of those songs' master tapes, and/or inconsistent frequency response in the mixing & mastering.

On the other hand, it seems hard to believe Columbia engineers would have wanted it this way. It also might be "not intentional, but intentionally not fixed".

Who knows!

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